1 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:09,080 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:26,210 hello to those people driving in your 3 00:00:31,900 --> 00:00:28,890 car hello to those people walking the 4 00:00:35,510 --> 00:00:31,910 dog with them mmm me stuck in your ears 5 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:35,520 hello those people on the train all the 6 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:39,050 bus or the theory right now commuting to 7 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:42,690 or from work hello and welcome to the 8 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:46,410 skeptic zone episode number 152 for the 9 00:00:53,990 --> 00:00:50,370 17th of sep tember 2011 Richard Saunders 10 00:00:57,250 --> 00:00:54,000 here with you from a very warm very warm 11 00:00:59,990 --> 00:00:57,260 Sydney Australia I think spring is here 12 00:01:01,700 --> 00:01:00,000 or it's around the corner or maybe it 13 00:01:04,850 --> 00:01:01,710 just went by I don't know but it's 14 00:01:06,740 --> 00:01:04,860 lovely warm day today beautiful day lots 15 00:01:09,950 --> 00:01:06,750 of lovely clouds in the sky and some 16 00:01:12,530 --> 00:01:09,960 ducks on the duck pond took my review 17 00:01:14,390 --> 00:01:12,540 and nice out for a walk and anyway 18 00:01:17,630 --> 00:01:14,400 getting back to today's show we have an 19 00:01:20,870 --> 00:01:17,640 interview with Mark Chris lip from quack 20 00:01:24,980 --> 00:01:20,880 cast quite cast is a fantastic our 21 00:01:27,230 --> 00:01:24,990 podcast dedicated to ducks I'll quackery 22 00:01:29,690 --> 00:01:27,240 all sorts of quackery now i'll be 23 00:01:32,719 --> 00:01:29,700 including the links to quite cast on the 24 00:01:34,999 --> 00:01:32,729 the show notes and in the newsletter the 25 00:01:38,660 --> 00:01:35,009 weekly newsletter free to subscribe just 26 00:01:42,370 --> 00:01:38,670 visit skeptic zone TV dr. Reggie caught 27 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:42,380 up with mark at tam nine in Las Vegas 28 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:45,090 the more the week's go on the more I 29 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:46,950 think that woman only interviewed people 30 00:01:50,450 --> 00:01:48,810 it's all she must have done when she 31 00:01:52,599 --> 00:01:50,460 went to town that's that's it I can't 32 00:01:55,730 --> 00:01:52,609 believe she had time to have dinner or 33 00:01:58,249 --> 00:01:55,740 have a krabby leg mmm those crab legs 34 00:02:00,170 --> 00:01:58,259 and that casino okay what that's coming 35 00:02:03,709 --> 00:02:00,180 up at the top of the show now after that 36 00:02:06,969 --> 00:02:03,719 it's Maynard spooky action he asked the 37 00:02:10,580 --> 00:02:06,979 big questions why are skeptics unfunny 38 00:02:15,050 --> 00:02:10,590 yeah you'll find out more when may not 39 00:02:16,790 --> 00:02:15,060 interview Simon Taylor the comedian from 40 00:02:21,140 --> 00:02:16,800 Melbourne who is visiting Maynard's 41 00:02:24,110 --> 00:02:21,150 hometown of Newcastle in the week why 42 00:02:26,780 --> 00:02:24,120 are skeptics and freethinkers atheists 43 00:02:29,839 --> 00:02:26,790 humanists etc clara unfunny well they're 44 00:02:32,509 --> 00:02:29,849 not of course but these topics are 45 00:02:33,740 --> 00:02:32,519 covered with main art and to wrap up the 46 00:02:38,390 --> 00:02:33,750 show dr. 47 00:02:41,180 --> 00:02:38,400 'he reports on her quest permission to 48 00:02:43,820 --> 00:02:41,190 reform the TGA in this country 49 00:02:48,140 --> 00:02:43,830 therapeutics Goods Administration the 50 00:02:50,810 --> 00:02:48,150 people who look after our drugs so to 51 00:02:53,210 --> 00:02:50,820 speak and who keep an eye on dodgy 52 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:53,220 advertising but as we will find out and 53 00:02:59,600 --> 00:02:55,290 as regular listeners to the skeptics and 54 00:03:01,970 --> 00:02:59,610 dr. reaching know already there next to 55 00:03:06,290 --> 00:03:01,980 useless find out more at the end of the 56 00:03:08,750 --> 00:03:06,300 show with dr. Reggie reports now 57 00:03:11,420 --> 00:03:08,760 speaking of maynard which we were a 58 00:03:13,790 --> 00:03:11,430 moment ago those people in melbourne 59 00:03:16,130 --> 00:03:13,800 will be delighted because main art is 60 00:03:18,790 --> 00:03:16,140 heading your way together with dr h your 61 00:03:22,490 --> 00:03:18,800 answer given Joe Benna mu to the 62 00:03:24,350 --> 00:03:22,500 fabulous skeptic camp and if you google 63 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:24,360 skeptic aunt Melbourne you'll find out 64 00:03:27,620 --> 00:03:26,010 more details and there will be more 65 00:03:29,810 --> 00:03:27,630 details on this show coming up in the 66 00:03:31,729 --> 00:03:29,820 next few weeks we're sending men are to 67 00:03:33,380 --> 00:03:31,739 his first skeptic am now you may 68 00:03:37,010 --> 00:03:33,390 remember last year may not did a 69 00:03:39,650 --> 00:03:37,020 fantastic job for us reporting from town 70 00:03:41,449 --> 00:03:39,660 Australia running around for days on end 71 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:41,459 with his microphone getting wonderful 72 00:03:47,690 --> 00:03:44,250 interviews and we've decided since he's 73 00:03:51,020 --> 00:03:47,700 so does that such a good job we're going 74 00:03:55,820 --> 00:03:51,030 to sponsor Maynard to go to Tam Las 75 00:03:59,840 --> 00:03:55,830 Vegas Tam 10 in Las Vegas and you know 76 00:04:03,380 --> 00:03:59,850 what we'd like to ask you to help if 77 00:04:05,979 --> 00:04:03,390 you've never contributed to the skeptic 78 00:04:09,710 --> 00:04:05,989 zone before let's let's do it this way 79 00:04:12,789 --> 00:04:09,720 what I'd like you to do is go to skip 80 00:04:15,710 --> 00:04:12,799 exam TV click the link for a weekly 81 00:04:18,860 --> 00:04:15,720 contribution of one dollar and if you've 82 00:04:21,319 --> 00:04:18,870 never done it before stay in there for 83 00:04:24,770 --> 00:04:21,329 just one month that's it just a month 84 00:04:26,210 --> 00:04:24,780 and then you can cancel and fantastic if 85 00:04:29,330 --> 00:04:26,220 enough people have you do that 86 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:29,340 periodically and I'm sure we can get 87 00:04:35,930 --> 00:04:31,770 together enough money to get Maynard 88 00:04:40,820 --> 00:04:35,940 over with us to enjoy tam Las Vegas and 89 00:04:45,140 --> 00:04:40,830 bring you many many hours of great 90 00:04:47,119 --> 00:04:45,150 reports insights and interviews why not 91 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:47,129 huh why not this man were 92 00:04:51,739 --> 00:04:49,050 so hard for the skeptic zone bringing 93 00:04:53,899 --> 00:04:51,749 you fabulous reports as you'll hear 94 00:04:57,169 --> 00:04:53,909 today let's do that for him he's a great 95 00:04:59,089 --> 00:04:57,179 bloke and and I just think that having 96 00:05:01,429 --> 00:04:59,099 may not in Las Vegas it's a match made 97 00:05:04,459 --> 00:05:01,439 in heaven somehow let's see what we can 98 00:05:06,589 --> 00:05:04,469 do also in the past week it's it's come 99 00:05:10,029 --> 00:05:06,599 to my attention that the rebel sports 100 00:05:14,199 --> 00:05:10,039 outlet chain here in Australia are 101 00:05:16,969 --> 00:05:14,209 selling a new form of the Magic Band oh 102 00:05:20,389 --> 00:05:16,979 boy how many of these are there this 103 00:05:23,659 --> 00:05:20,399 one's called the NRG titanium ion band 104 00:05:24,949 --> 00:05:23,669 all sorts of medical claims listen if 105 00:05:26,749 --> 00:05:24,959 you want to find out more about this 106 00:05:28,609 --> 00:05:26,759 band and believe me the Australian 107 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:28,619 skeptics are on to this and we're going 108 00:05:35,689 --> 00:05:31,490 to be doing something about it you can 109 00:05:39,489 --> 00:05:35,699 visit their Facebook page in fact if you 110 00:05:48,409 --> 00:05:39,499 go to facebook and look for it in our 111 00:05:51,980 --> 00:05:48,419 g/t ITA n iu m I oh n so energy to tain 112 00:05:55,269 --> 00:05:51,990 iam eye on you can see their facebook 113 00:05:59,119 --> 00:05:55,279 page and read their outrageous medical 114 00:06:01,129 --> 00:05:59,129 repeat medical claims about blood flow 115 00:06:04,519 --> 00:06:01,139 and free radicals and all sorts of 116 00:06:08,179 --> 00:06:04,529 things Oh dearie me people really think 117 00:06:10,850 --> 00:06:08,189 that a rubber band with some great 118 00:06:12,980 --> 00:06:10,860 medical claims and trying to bamboozle 119 00:06:16,009 --> 00:06:12,990 people of science sounding words is 120 00:06:19,309 --> 00:06:16,019 going to wash any more they got another 121 00:06:21,439 --> 00:06:19,319 thing coming and also on to this is our 122 00:06:24,169 --> 00:06:21,449 dear friend dr. Steven novella from the 123 00:06:27,019 --> 00:06:24,179 skeptics guide to the universe have a 124 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:27,029 look at science-based medicine blog 125 00:06:33,559 --> 00:06:31,289 science-based medicine org and look for 126 00:06:36,199 --> 00:06:33,569 the entry called pseudoscience cells 127 00:06:41,649 --> 00:06:36,209 where dr. novella just takes these bands 128 00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:41,659 apart oh boy our work is never done and 129 00:06:47,769 --> 00:06:45,209 these are is mine as you listen to the 130 00:06:50,329 --> 00:06:47,779 skeptics own I'm going to run downstairs 131 00:06:53,419 --> 00:06:50,339 I'm going to get some vanilla ice cream 132 00:06:58,879 --> 00:06:53,429 in a cup a little bit of Hershey's 133 00:07:00,420 --> 00:06:58,889 chocolate mmm on top teaspoon beat it up 134 00:07:03,750 --> 00:07:00,430 a little bit maybe a bit of whip 135 00:07:26,590 --> 00:07:03,760 cream oh boy I'm going to enjoy that and 136 00:07:32,090 --> 00:07:29,570 i'm here at ten nine with the wonderful 137 00:07:33,770 --> 00:07:32,100 dr. Marcus lip hi mark i welcome to the 138 00:07:36,980 --> 00:07:33,780 skeptic zone thank you thank you for 139 00:07:39,830 --> 00:07:36,990 being with us you of course are the 140 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:39,840 author and presenter of the wonderful 141 00:07:47,810 --> 00:07:43,050 quickcast podcast which is of course the 142 00:07:50,180 --> 00:07:47,820 sarcastic and PP medical podcast that we 143 00:07:52,430 --> 00:07:50,190 all love thank you and of course you are 144 00:07:54,410 --> 00:07:52,440 also the owner of the trademark the 145 00:07:55,820 --> 00:07:54,420 world needs more mark Chris lip yes I 146 00:07:59,240 --> 00:07:55,830 think so which is why we've got you on 147 00:08:00,830 --> 00:07:59,250 the skipper zone today hope people 148 00:08:03,020 --> 00:08:00,840 understand that's meant sarcastically 149 00:08:05,750 --> 00:08:03,030 yeah so for those of you who don't 150 00:08:07,970 --> 00:08:05,760 listen to your podcast um you kind of 151 00:08:11,690 --> 00:08:07,980 your right upfront about what you call 152 00:08:14,540 --> 00:08:11,700 scam yeah not can and so what is that 153 00:08:17,570 --> 00:08:14,550 what is it that stand scam our schemes 154 00:08:20,180 --> 00:08:17,580 gah supplements coupling and alternative 155 00:08:22,070 --> 00:08:20,190 medicine yeah and that was Peters about 156 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:22,080 it dad pronounce it I'll paint about it 157 00:08:26,660 --> 00:08:23,970 I think he originated it so I stole it 158 00:08:27,980 --> 00:08:26,670 from him I didn't know yeah I didn't 159 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:27,990 originate it I stole it from somebody 160 00:08:32,779 --> 00:08:29,970 and I think it was Peter okay so i'll 161 00:08:34,730 --> 00:08:32,789 give him credit so you're pretty much 162 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:34,740 straight up and down about this stuff 163 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:37,710 might you don't mince words where where 164 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:39,330 it's necessary to say this is 165 00:08:44,300 --> 00:08:41,370 you call it out me no i think it's 166 00:08:46,730 --> 00:08:44,310 important to be honest with people the 167 00:08:49,420 --> 00:08:46,740 house staff voted me attending most 168 00:08:52,610 --> 00:08:49,430 likely to tell it like it is so really i 169 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:52,620 think its spread throughout my life well 170 00:08:56,930 --> 00:08:54,930 you already faced as a specialist so 171 00:08:58,940 --> 00:08:56,940 what do you what do you do to stay there 172 00:09:01,850 --> 00:08:58,950 dad take care of patients in hospitals 173 00:09:03,830 --> 00:09:01,860 with weird or unusual infections mm-hmm 174 00:09:06,500 --> 00:09:03,840 so weird pneumonias our Falcon fractions 175 00:09:09,530 --> 00:09:06,510 meningitis aid stuff like that so in 176 00:09:11,420 --> 00:09:09,540 terms of that I suppose you would come 177 00:09:13,250 --> 00:09:11,430 across a lot of people that use can last 178 00:09:15,860 --> 00:09:13,260 game as you say you may find that into 179 00:09:18,170 --> 00:09:15,870 practice the people so I asked every 180 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:18,180 patient but the majority don't beyond 181 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:19,690 herbs in car 182 00:09:25,380 --> 00:09:22,570 practica an acupuncture it's very rare 183 00:09:26,850 --> 00:09:25,390 to find anybody who actually is people 184 00:09:29,190 --> 00:09:26,860 who are deep into that don't come in the 185 00:09:31,140 --> 00:09:29,200 hospital happens occasionally but mostly 186 00:09:33,270 --> 00:09:31,150 it's casual use more than anything else 187 00:09:35,340 --> 00:09:33,280 so do you think it's that I don't use 188 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:35,350 it'll don't tell you that i use it i ask 189 00:09:39,870 --> 00:09:37,810 i think the only thing people lie 190 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:39,880 routinely about is their taste in music 191 00:09:44,370 --> 00:09:42,370 because they tell you about their sexual 192 00:09:45,450 --> 00:09:44,380 habits and the drug use and i don't 193 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:45,460 think they're going to hide it from me 194 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:47,290 right because there are there have been 195 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:48,850 studies done on this and in particular i 196 00:09:54,180 --> 00:09:51,250 recently did some research on cammy's in 197 00:09:55,950 --> 00:09:54,190 HIV I want in hiv-positive patients and 198 00:09:58,230 --> 00:09:55,960 some of the studies were showing that 199 00:10:00,120 --> 00:09:58,240 something like 40 up to forty nine 200 00:10:01,710 --> 00:10:00,130 percent of the people were not telling 201 00:10:03,210 --> 00:10:01,720 their doctors that they were takin care 202 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:03,220 yeah but probably cuz they were being 203 00:10:07,830 --> 00:10:05,170 asked and when people are in the 204 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:07,840 hospital they're sick and so they don't 205 00:10:11,820 --> 00:10:10,450 hide anything for fear that they're 206 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:11,830 going to hold something back this 207 00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:13,930 important yeah because the one of the 208 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:16,240 other statistics that I was I came 209 00:10:21,450 --> 00:10:19,090 across in a review was out of all the 210 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:21,460 scam or can use by particularly 211 00:10:28,350 --> 00:10:23,410 hiv-positive patients one of the highest 212 00:10:30,260 --> 00:10:28,360 ones was prayer and then supplements and 213 00:10:32,850 --> 00:10:30,270 what one of the interesting things was 214 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:32,860 people who were on heart in highly 215 00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:35,890 active antiretroviral therapy but also 216 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:38,590 on supplements if they started to feel 217 00:10:42,390 --> 00:10:40,570 better they would attribute that to the 218 00:10:45,030 --> 00:10:42,400 supplements not to the antiretroviral 219 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:45,040 therapy it's always the case and I'd you 220 00:10:49,470 --> 00:10:46,330 know it always depends you read those 221 00:10:53,180 --> 00:10:49,480 things I need to find a scam because I 222 00:10:58,050 --> 00:10:56,040 anything important right because it 223 00:11:00,030 --> 00:10:58,060 doesn't have it a feta of physiological 224 00:11:01,110 --> 00:11:00,040 of that makes you feel comfortable but 225 00:11:03,180 --> 00:11:01,120 it's not going to interfere with your 226 00:11:04,770 --> 00:11:03,190 medications it's not going to cause 227 00:11:07,140 --> 00:11:04,780 infections just not going to have side 228 00:11:09,930 --> 00:11:07,150 effects it's not going to be a stroke so 229 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:09,940 you know prayer is as innocuous as Ricky 230 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:12,730 so yeah those don't matter people use 231 00:11:15,810 --> 00:11:14,170 them because they do absolutely 232 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:15,820 nothing I don't care if my patients take 233 00:11:20,850 --> 00:11:18,910 homeopathy how's it going to do but 234 00:11:23,220 --> 00:11:20,860 herbs I asked them specifically you take 235 00:11:25,889 --> 00:11:23,230 any Arab defense or something if I think 236 00:11:29,069 --> 00:11:25,899 they're always forthcoming so what in 237 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:29,079 the case of say for example with HIV 238 00:11:32,939 --> 00:11:31,050 there are herbs that can interact with 239 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:32,949 antiretrovirals out there that can 240 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:35,290 actually increase their effect or reduce 241 00:11:39,900 --> 00:11:38,410 their effect so it is important to know 242 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:39,910 if your patients taking that isn't it 243 00:11:42,990 --> 00:11:41,050 yeah there's a lot of drug drug 244 00:11:45,269 --> 00:11:43,000 interested parties and editors there's a 245 00:11:46,530 --> 00:11:45,279 lot of drug drug interactions so you 246 00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:46,540 have to know what people are also you 247 00:11:49,889 --> 00:11:47,800 can manage their medications 248 00:11:51,449 --> 00:11:49,899 appropriately so does it frustrate you 249 00:11:55,139 --> 00:11:51,459 when you come across patients that are 250 00:11:58,019 --> 00:11:55,149 taking alternative medicines no not 251 00:12:00,930 --> 00:11:58,029 really I mean you know I'm an on 252 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:00,940 the podcast but but in real life you 253 00:12:05,790 --> 00:12:03,910 know it's my job to form a working 254 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:05,800 relationship with everybody that comes 255 00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:08,110 their way since I'm the only person who 256 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:10,720 does what I do in my hospital I can't 257 00:12:16,019 --> 00:12:14,410 afford to alienate or piss off a patient 258 00:12:17,879 --> 00:12:16,029 because then they have no one else to go 259 00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:17,889 to so you know I was just part of the 260 00:12:22,050 --> 00:12:19,990 continuum of human behavior it's like 261 00:12:23,939 --> 00:12:22,060 you know this person does that the next 262 00:12:26,610 --> 00:12:23,949 person to something you know equally 263 00:12:29,460 --> 00:12:26,620 stupid hmm no I don't it doesn't 264 00:12:31,710 --> 00:12:29,470 frustrate me I get like having teenage 265 00:12:35,310 --> 00:12:31,720 children and i long ago gave up on being 266 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:35,320 frustrated with human behavior here that 267 00:12:42,569 --> 00:12:38,410 if you're listening we can edit that 268 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:42,579 out or not I don't care what good so I 269 00:12:46,259 --> 00:12:44,890 know that you have in the past you do 270 00:12:49,319 --> 00:12:46,269 right for science-based medicine as well 271 00:12:51,150 --> 00:12:49,329 the blog which is also Steve novella 272 00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:51,160 also writes for that as well as David 273 00:12:55,889 --> 00:12:53,470 core see you have addressed in the past 274 00:12:58,259 --> 00:12:55,899 issues put forth by the anti-vaccination 275 00:12:59,850 --> 00:12:58,269 movement with respect to that in your 276 00:13:02,100 --> 00:12:59,860 practice have you seen a rise in any 277 00:13:04,710 --> 00:13:02,110 sort of vaccine-preventable diseases gee 278 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:04,720 I have seen diseases that I have not 279 00:13:08,699 --> 00:13:06,490 seen before or at least they've been 280 00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:08,709 reported in my community I've seen now 281 00:13:12,210 --> 00:13:10,480 natural case of months which spies a 282 00:13:16,610 --> 00:13:12,220 heck out of me because I never seen 283 00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:16,620 mumps measles we've had small numbers in 284 00:13:20,460 --> 00:13:18,910 Portland but they haven't we try and 285 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:20,470 keep measles out of the hospital because 286 00:13:25,019 --> 00:13:23,470 it is the most contagious disease my 287 00:13:25,870 --> 00:13:25,029 second most contagious disease may be 288 00:13:29,470 --> 00:13:25,880 known to man 289 00:13:32,350 --> 00:13:29,480 so I we don't try and bring them in if 290 00:13:34,270 --> 00:13:32,360 we can so you sort of more hear about 291 00:13:36,220 --> 00:13:34,280 them is they're mostly outpatient i'm 292 00:13:39,820 --> 00:13:36,230 ninety-nine percent inpatient medicine 293 00:13:42,340 --> 00:13:39,830 so they asked me those mumps chicken pox 294 00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:42,350 is always there Hasina German measles in 295 00:13:48,970 --> 00:13:45,310 25 years what about whooping cough 296 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:48,980 pertussis is an ongoing total pain in 297 00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:51,890 the neck because it happens is adults 298 00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:53,570 have it they're not immunized and then 299 00:13:58,420 --> 00:13:55,760 they come into the ER caulking and 300 00:14:00,370 --> 00:13:58,430 expose everybody and it's more problem 301 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:00,380 in adults with chronic cough than it is 302 00:14:06,610 --> 00:14:02,570 and kids most pediatricians are and the 303 00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:06,620 ers are clued in that a coffee kid has 304 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:08,720 pertussis put them in isolation but 305 00:14:16,290 --> 00:14:11,930 that's creeping up to promos not as bad 306 00:14:19,930 --> 00:14:16,300 as I is some areas in the northwest for 307 00:14:21,580 --> 00:14:19,940 anti-vaccine problems though some of the 308 00:14:24,820 --> 00:14:21,590 schools evidently are quite high in the 309 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:24,830 area yeah because recently in at least 310 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:26,690 in California there were laws introduced 311 00:14:29,470 --> 00:14:27,770 that you have to demonstrate your 312 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:29,480 children have been vaccinated now before 313 00:14:33,670 --> 00:14:31,090 you they can go to a public school 314 00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:33,680 because there has been as you would be 315 00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:35,600 aware an epidemic of whooping cough in 316 00:14:40,900 --> 00:14:38,240 California couple deaths too sad yeah I 317 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:40,910 think nine deaths at last count of kids 318 00:14:45,670 --> 00:14:42,530 under the age where they can actually be 319 00:14:47,050 --> 00:14:45,680 vaccinated yeah um so do you do you come 320 00:14:50,070 --> 00:14:47,060 across that in your practice you come 321 00:14:53,170 --> 00:14:50,080 across people patients that are dispute 322 00:14:54,610 --> 00:14:53,180 vaccination and ask you and put forward 323 00:14:56,770 --> 00:14:54,620 some of the canners that I guess we're 324 00:14:58,330 --> 00:14:56,780 familiar with it's actually now so much 325 00:15:00,330 --> 00:14:58,340 in my pride because I only deal with 326 00:15:04,390 --> 00:15:00,340 adults but it's more of my real life 327 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:04,400 where some surprised that people don't 328 00:15:09,550 --> 00:15:07,250 want to have vaccines I mean the reason 329 00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:09,560 that we live to be 80 is flush toilets 330 00:15:14,770 --> 00:15:13,310 clean water and vaccinations and if you 331 00:15:16,810 --> 00:15:14,780 read history everybody's to dive 332 00:15:19,870 --> 00:15:16,820 infectious diseases that are preventable 333 00:15:21,820 --> 00:15:19,880 now and and this is boggles my mind that 334 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:21,830 people will not vaccinate their kids or 335 00:15:28,030 --> 00:15:24,770 worry about it can you speculate why 336 00:15:28,990 --> 00:15:28,040 people dear it comes down to Thea 337 00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:29,000 they're afraid their kids are going to 338 00:15:33,790 --> 00:15:31,310 get side effects or autism or some 339 00:15:37,090 --> 00:15:33,800 complications of vaccine and they don't 340 00:15:37,750 --> 00:15:37,100 know the fear that the plagues of the 341 00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:37,760 past 342 00:15:43,210 --> 00:15:41,390 used to cause you know polio used to 343 00:15:44,890 --> 00:15:43,220 devastate communities measles would 344 00:15:47,260 --> 00:15:44,900 devastate community shut the whole 345 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:47,270 communities down doesn't happen these 346 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:49,010 days because of vaccinations and herd 347 00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:50,690 immunity but were kind of creeping 348 00:15:54,730 --> 00:15:52,310 closer and closer to the edge where we 349 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:54,740 may have a problem again yeah and I have 350 00:15:58,720 --> 00:15:56,810 a child who starts college in six weeks 351 00:16:00,970 --> 00:15:58,730 so I need the business so don't 352 00:16:03,010 --> 00:16:00,980 vaccinate your children I need the 353 00:16:06,460 --> 00:16:03,020 measles I need the chicken pox I need a 354 00:16:08,980 --> 00:16:06,470 good plague so you have addressed in the 355 00:16:12,670 --> 00:16:08,990 past on your podcast but also on the sbm 356 00:16:15,070 --> 00:16:12,680 blog this whole internet meme called the 357 00:16:17,550 --> 00:16:15,080 nine questions that yeah physicians or 358 00:16:19,570 --> 00:16:17,560 scientists can't answer about vaccines I 359 00:16:20,410 --> 00:16:19,580 just wanted to run through a couple of 360 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:20,420 those because they're actually quite 361 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:22,130 interesting the one that I'm 362 00:16:26,530 --> 00:16:24,610 particularly annoys me is the one about 363 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:26,540 vaccines being injected into the 364 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:28,490 bloodstream now you find this all over 365 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:31,130 anti-vaccination websites that's wrong 366 00:16:35,230 --> 00:16:33,410 is there most of them in the muscle it's 367 00:16:37,870 --> 00:16:35,240 not very much as I said well the muscle 368 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:37,880 has a blood supply so but I do not 369 00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:39,530 inject it into the bloodstream but it 370 00:16:43,570 --> 00:16:41,120 sounds scary to say that doesn't it 371 00:16:45,010 --> 00:16:43,580 because it makes it sound scarier to say 372 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:45,020 it's injected into the bloodstream than 373 00:16:48,970 --> 00:16:47,210 it is to say it's injected into your oh 374 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:48,980 yeah there's more scary now 375 00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:50,570 interestingly there was a study recently 376 00:16:55,930 --> 00:16:53,510 where they took like 120 people and they 377 00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:55,940 had the brush and floss and they check 378 00:17:01,060 --> 00:16:58,370 their blood for bacteria and it was 379 00:17:02,650 --> 00:17:01,070 found an 80 of the about 120 people so 380 00:17:04,569 --> 00:17:02,660 you want to be scared I wouldn't worry 381 00:17:06,610 --> 00:17:04,579 about a vaccine you really shouldn't 382 00:17:08,050 --> 00:17:06,620 brush your teeth I mean you get back to 383 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:08,060 Rhema you get stuff in your blood all 384 00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:10,010 the time is the human condition to have 385 00:17:13,630 --> 00:17:11,510 stuff in your bloodstream all the time 386 00:17:15,460 --> 00:17:13,640 that's why I have an immune system and 387 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:15,470 and the trivial amount of stuff you get 388 00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:17,810 from an intramuscular vaccine or are 389 00:17:21,610 --> 00:17:19,670 nothing the other thing that they talk 390 00:17:23,710 --> 00:17:21,620 about is that infectious diseases 391 00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:23,720 haven't declined because of vaccines 392 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:26,030 it's been the increase in sanitation and 393 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:29,090 I think more sunshine and unicorn farts 394 00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:34,850 or something but you oh I thought it was 395 00:17:39,670 --> 00:17:36,710 you to call tears that will protect oh 396 00:17:41,410 --> 00:17:39,680 no it's against Bobby jobs makes all the 397 00:17:43,510 --> 00:17:41,420 apple products with unicorn tears and 398 00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:43,520 that's why they're so special oh but I 399 00:17:46,450 --> 00:17:45,440 know is your cord farts well unicorn 400 00:17:50,650 --> 00:17:46,460 spot rainbows 401 00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:50,660 you know I did not know that oh I've 402 00:17:57,940 --> 00:17:54,320 already forgot the question okay focus 403 00:18:00,720 --> 00:17:57,950 the question was that the ant effects to 404 00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:00,730 say that vaccines have not reduced DVDs 405 00:18:05,230 --> 00:18:03,590 ever everything that has improved the 406 00:18:06,910 --> 00:18:05,240 quality and decrease infection is 407 00:18:09,460 --> 00:18:06,920 multifactorial so there's no single 408 00:18:12,010 --> 00:18:09,470 thing that decreases infections in the 409 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:12,020 community it's been flush toilets it's 410 00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:13,730 been good nutrition it's been 411 00:18:18,430 --> 00:18:15,860 understanding the epidemiology of 412 00:18:20,290 --> 00:18:18,440 disease but it's also been vaccination 413 00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:20,300 and anytime you want to make an impact 414 00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:22,160 on infectious disease there's never a 415 00:18:27,670 --> 00:18:25,910 single answer there are multiple answers 416 00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:27,680 and their own hospital systems we've 417 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:29,600 done multiple things to decrease 418 00:18:33,460 --> 00:18:31,730 hospital infections and we've decreased 419 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:33,470 our hospital infections estimate like 420 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:36,650 750 in the last two years and but it 421 00:18:40,870 --> 00:18:38,810 wasn't a thing it was multiple things 422 00:18:42,130 --> 00:18:40,880 mean is it's like saying that you know 423 00:18:44,110 --> 00:18:42,140 you're only going to get nutrition by 424 00:18:45,010 --> 00:18:44,120 eating nothing but broccoli I mean 425 00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:45,020 you're going to get good nutrition 426 00:18:48,790 --> 00:18:46,880 making lots of different things to stay 427 00:18:51,490 --> 00:18:48,800 in healthy it's a multifactorial 428 00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:51,500 intervention in vaccines are part of of 429 00:18:56,770 --> 00:18:53,840 a multifactorial interventions that's 430 00:18:58,450 --> 00:18:56,780 driven infections down but is they 431 00:19:00,520 --> 00:18:58,460 proven they have places where people are 432 00:19:04,180 --> 00:19:00,530 vaccinated when they're exposed they get 433 00:19:06,310 --> 00:19:04,190 the disease but I also like to to 434 00:19:08,590 --> 00:19:06,320 message the statistics or actually just 435 00:19:12,810 --> 00:19:08,600 really think cherry picked them because 436 00:19:15,610 --> 00:19:12,820 they tend to only include deaths from 437 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:15,620 vaccine-preventable diseases as opposed 438 00:19:22,210 --> 00:19:19,610 to chronic long-term effects so they'll 439 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:22,220 say the deaths have introduced that much 440 00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:24,050 but then you also don't you also have to 441 00:19:27,580 --> 00:19:25,760 consider that you're not looking at 442 00:19:30,460 --> 00:19:27,590 long-term problems and side effects so 443 00:19:32,290 --> 00:19:30,470 for example with pertussis if you get 444 00:19:34,090 --> 00:19:32,300 that as a child you can then possibly 445 00:19:36,850 --> 00:19:34,100 get a cough every 12 months for a long 446 00:19:38,140 --> 00:19:36,860 time it's not just that infection period 447 00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:38,150 and that's the end of that illness is it 448 00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:39,760 yeah the most amazing how people 449 00:19:46,060 --> 00:19:43,190 trivialize human suffering um always not 450 00:19:49,390 --> 00:19:46,070 just deaths it's you know other things 451 00:19:51,670 --> 00:19:49,400 are unchanged go on the on the internet 452 00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:51,680 and find videos of kids with pertussis I 453 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:54,080 mean it's horrible to watch these kids 454 00:19:57,460 --> 00:19:55,250 try and cost them 455 00:19:59,920 --> 00:19:57,470 elves to death I mean these are awful 456 00:20:02,830 --> 00:19:59,930 illnesses that you mean they're horrible 457 00:20:04,060 --> 00:20:02,840 and and it is hard to trivialize human 458 00:20:07,060 --> 00:20:04,070 suffering that's preventable with 459 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:07,070 minimal 20 side effects you know what 460 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:08,810 they really I mean my children really 461 00:20:13,630 --> 00:20:11,450 chafed about their seatbelts it went 462 00:20:15,490 --> 00:20:13,640 across their neck and on long drives I 463 00:20:18,370 --> 00:20:15,500 got these little red marks and I've 464 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:18,380 never been in an accident so why would I 465 00:20:22,870 --> 00:20:20,810 have my kids wear seatbelts hmm that's 466 00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:22,880 that logic I know it's just I don't get 467 00:20:28,870 --> 00:20:27,200 it yeah i mean the rig the morbidity of 468 00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:28,880 a vaccine is so much less than the 469 00:20:33,940 --> 00:20:32,270 morbidity of the disease yeah the risk 470 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:33,950 associated with the side effects its 471 00:20:37,180 --> 00:20:35,930 much so much more than and so that 472 00:20:40,210 --> 00:20:37,190 that's something else they can't 473 00:20:41,650 --> 00:20:40,220 interpret is the risk-benefit ratio but 474 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:41,660 you you're a doctor so clearly you're 475 00:20:50,050 --> 00:20:45,010 paid by Big Pharma first of all I wish 476 00:20:54,910 --> 00:20:50,060 your your shield mark yeah I have 477 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:54,920 accepted one thing in 20-30 years from a 478 00:20:59,140 --> 00:20:57,290 pharmaceutical company now I don't eat 479 00:21:02,920 --> 00:20:59,150 the pizza at conferences I go take the 480 00:21:05,470 --> 00:21:02,930 books I don't go to I don't take the 481 00:21:09,490 --> 00:21:05,480 pins I don't talk to pharmacy reps and 482 00:21:13,870 --> 00:21:09,500 but about 15 years ago the maker of 483 00:21:15,490 --> 00:21:13,880 unasyn since he they quit using the drug 484 00:21:17,830 --> 00:21:15,500 because of me and so he left the 485 00:21:20,110 --> 00:21:17,840 hospital and he sent me a fleet cinema 486 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:20,120 with a unison sticker on it and deftly 487 00:21:26,860 --> 00:21:22,010 cinema I always showed the start of my 488 00:21:29,140 --> 00:21:26,870 talks proudly sits on my desk so that's 489 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:29,150 the only thing I've ever taken ever from 490 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:30,890 a pharmaceutical company interestingly 491 00:21:36,730 --> 00:21:34,850 on somebody sent an email to my the head 492 00:21:39,580 --> 00:21:36,740 of my hospital system complaining about 493 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:39,590 me and it was anonymous but you know 494 00:21:46,990 --> 00:21:44,690 when you print out a a something off the 495 00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:47,000 computer gives you the folder is printed 496 00:21:52,330 --> 00:21:50,510 from c dash hard drive / the folder and 497 00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:52,340 it was curious that the name of the 498 00:21:58,510 --> 00:21:54,710 folder it was printed from was also the 499 00:22:00,880 --> 00:21:58,520 name of the local levofloxacin rep so oh 500 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:00,890 she wasn't real bright that was 501 00:22:05,630 --> 00:22:02,910 I've never taken anything from Big 502 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:05,640 Pharma ever I'd like to and if there's 503 00:22:11,570 --> 00:22:07,170 someone from big farmer listening I 504 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:11,580 would like to be on your paper as I keep 505 00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:15,450 saying my kid starts college what what 506 00:22:19,490 --> 00:22:17,520 is the evidence for long-term safety and 507 00:22:21,710 --> 00:22:19,500 efficacy because we have a dumb 508 00:22:23,420 --> 00:22:21,720 double-blind randomized yeah thank you 509 00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:23,430 so we put kids in a room and give it and 510 00:22:26,420 --> 00:22:25,110 pertussis in them and put a bunch in 511 00:22:28,610 --> 00:22:26,430 another room and giving them a back same 512 00:22:29,990 --> 00:22:28,620 a given pertussis yeah that used to be 513 00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:30,000 an interesting ethical question as to 514 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:32,400 how you can how much you can study 515 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:34,170 something in a placebo-controlled trial 516 00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:35,850 when you have efficacy and you have a 517 00:22:41,210 --> 00:22:38,100 preponderance of data both historical 518 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:41,220 and short-term that drugs are safe and 519 00:22:47,330 --> 00:22:44,370 effective it becomes unethical to do 520 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:47,340 just that study at least outside of a 521 00:22:55,030 --> 00:22:49,530 human what's he calling you you bring up 522 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:55,040 Nazis Godwin's yeah time for God is no 523 00:23:00,680 --> 00:22:57,450 no I do that at the in concentration 524 00:23:03,710 --> 00:23:00,690 camp I mean movie uh no not exactly no 525 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:03,720 there was that syphilis study yeah 1952 526 00:23:09,290 --> 00:23:06,210 attorneys taste in 1970 yeah Tuskegee is 527 00:23:11,420 --> 00:23:09,300 one of the great black eyes yeah but it 528 00:23:13,730 --> 00:23:11,430 would be unethical to do that in this 529 00:23:16,430 --> 00:23:13,740 day and age and when you follow cohorts 530 00:23:18,830 --> 00:23:16,440 of kids long-term that you don't find 531 00:23:21,220 --> 00:23:18,840 long-term side effects from vaccinations 532 00:23:23,930 --> 00:23:21,230 and from out from what's the word 533 00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:23,940 plausibility reason there would be no 534 00:23:28,370 --> 00:23:25,710 reason to suspect it in the vast 535 00:23:30,860 --> 00:23:28,380 majority of the vaccines because there's 536 00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:30,870 really almost nothing in them but a wee 537 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:34,110 bit a protein and carbohydrate to let 538 00:23:37,370 --> 00:23:35,610 the immune system know what the bug 539 00:23:39,410 --> 00:23:37,380 looks like on the other hand as 540 00:23:42,310 --> 00:23:39,420 vaccinations gone up we've had more 541 00:23:46,460 --> 00:23:42,320 Republicans elected to the United States 542 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:46,470 some vaccinations was Republican but on 543 00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:49,610 a serious night there is evidence that 544 00:23:54,110 --> 00:23:51,990 vaccines have the long-term safety and 545 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:54,120 efficacy is in there yeah if you follow 546 00:23:59,720 --> 00:23:55,890 children people get vaccines long term 547 00:24:02,960 --> 00:23:59,730 there's no increase problems in kids who 548 00:24:05,570 --> 00:24:02,970 get vaccines now that's the best you can 549 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:05,580 do and that's the ethical thing you can 550 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:08,690 do I like the Polish study that actually 551 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:10,370 this year that showed that kids who 552 00:24:16,150 --> 00:24:12,290 stuck with the MMR schedule I had less 553 00:24:18,430 --> 00:24:16,160 autism than those that stretched it out 554 00:24:20,610 --> 00:24:18,440 or didn't get it and I thought that was 555 00:24:22,660 --> 00:24:20,620 an intriguing study so how do you 556 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:22,670 respond to people saying that you know 557 00:24:26,230 --> 00:24:24,650 polio hasn't really I mean hasn't 558 00:24:28,540 --> 00:24:26,240 disappeared but it hasn't really reduced 559 00:24:31,530 --> 00:24:28,550 they just renamed it so that we think 560 00:24:35,020 --> 00:24:31,540 it's around anymore I thought that was a 561 00:24:37,090 --> 00:24:35,030 smallpox smallpox is no chicken pox oh 562 00:24:39,250 --> 00:24:37,100 is it that's the one I've heard okay 563 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:39,260 it's interesting because that is the 564 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:41,210 greatest transmogrification of all time 565 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:43,570 because it completely changes genome 566 00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:47,090 from one hundred percent right i mean 567 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:48,110 that's what's really weird is that you 568 00:24:51,730 --> 00:24:50,210 mean you can you can stretch out and 569 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:51,740 read the entire genetic code of these 570 00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:53,930 viruses and say though that they just 571 00:24:58,660 --> 00:24:56,480 renamed it is it's just profoundly weird 572 00:25:00,490 --> 00:24:58,670 the guy who write these line questions 573 00:25:03,070 --> 00:25:00,500 is a natural passive is that correct 574 00:25:07,060 --> 00:25:03,080 yeah but you know what ND stands for not 575 00:25:08,470 --> 00:25:07,070 a doctor right so let's just change the 576 00:25:10,030 --> 00:25:08,480 subject for a moment let's talk a little 577 00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:10,040 bit about placebo because yourself 578 00:25:14,530 --> 00:25:12,320 myself and you on a panel on saturday 579 00:25:17,290 --> 00:25:14,540 talking about placebo medicine the only 580 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:17,300 thing the placebo effect is is people 581 00:25:21,580 --> 00:25:18,890 convincing themselves they're better 582 00:25:24,730 --> 00:25:21,590 when they're not hmm there is no placebo 583 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:24,740 effect it's a medical myth for the 584 00:25:29,020 --> 00:25:26,570 almost the entire part because when you 585 00:25:31,660 --> 00:25:29,030 look that it's only with subjective in 586 00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:31,670 come out in comes subjective outcomes 587 00:25:37,810 --> 00:25:34,240 where you see a placebo effect and 588 00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:37,820 subjective outcomes can't be trusted 589 00:25:44,050 --> 00:25:40,130 because when people are in studies they 590 00:25:46,090 --> 00:25:44,060 want to be of benefit they want to help 591 00:25:48,310 --> 00:25:46,100 it's the stockholder that go see that 592 00:25:50,350 --> 00:25:48,320 yeah you know people take on the 593 00:25:51,970 --> 00:25:50,360 characteristics of their kidnappers yeah 594 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:51,980 yeah I mean that's what being in a study 595 00:25:55,090 --> 00:25:53,570 is like you want to please your doctor 596 00:25:56,230 --> 00:25:55,100 you don't want to help them they're 597 00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:56,240 going to tell them what they want to 598 00:26:01,210 --> 00:25:58,640 hear my in so I don't it's like that's 599 00:26:04,540 --> 00:26:01,220 interesting but I'd like to see a non 600 00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:04,550 subjective endpoint that says that there 601 00:26:11,020 --> 00:26:07,760 was actually what they said is true my 602 00:26:14,290 --> 00:26:11,030 as i remember it was that an acupuncture 603 00:26:17,020 --> 00:26:14,300 study for chemo where they had people to 604 00:26:18,130 --> 00:26:17,030 keep a diary they got chemo they kept it 605 00:26:19,769 --> 00:26:18,140 out of their nausea and vomiting and 606 00:26:22,709 --> 00:26:19,779 they got acupuncture and they kept it 607 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:22,719 a diary other dodge and vomiting and 608 00:26:26,399 --> 00:26:25,450 they also ha this is right they all said 609 00:26:28,379 --> 00:26:26,409 that they got better with the 610 00:26:31,940 --> 00:26:28,389 acupuncture you look at their Diaries 611 00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:31,950 mmm no change mmm my other favorite is 612 00:26:36,779 --> 00:26:34,320 especially no I'm in my 50s is 613 00:26:38,399 --> 00:26:36,789 prosthetic hypertrophy so you get a big 614 00:26:42,690 --> 00:26:38,409 prostate we can't pee so they put people 615 00:26:45,060 --> 00:26:42,700 on on saw palmetto versus placebo both 616 00:26:46,649 --> 00:26:45,070 group said that they got better but they 617 00:26:48,930 --> 00:26:46,659 were measuring how hard they could pee 618 00:26:51,029 --> 00:26:48,940 you got an objective end point nobody 619 00:26:53,389 --> 00:26:51,039 changed through urodynamics and so if 620 00:26:57,839 --> 00:26:53,399 somebody tells you that they're better 621 00:27:00,329 --> 00:26:57,849 are they well that's an interesting 622 00:27:03,060 --> 00:27:00,339 philosophical question my other favorite 623 00:27:05,729 --> 00:27:03,070 is uh everyone seemed penn & teller's 624 00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:05,739 and the magnet one where they 625 00:27:10,499 --> 00:27:08,320 bend a downspout into the shape of a 626 00:27:11,669 --> 00:27:10,509 magnet and they paint it like a magnet 627 00:27:14,009 --> 00:27:11,679 and they hold it up to this lady's 628 00:27:16,139 --> 00:27:14,019 arthritic hand and she goes yeah it's 629 00:27:17,909 --> 00:27:16,149 better you know people tell you what you 630 00:27:19,529 --> 00:27:17,919 want to hear I don't think there's any 631 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:19,539 placebo effect whatsoever I mean it's 632 00:27:23,609 --> 00:27:22,330 absolutely no effect it goes anything I 633 00:27:26,129 --> 00:27:23,619 mean when it comes to things like this 634 00:27:28,349 --> 00:27:26,139 is the the classic one is well at 635 00:27:30,239 --> 00:27:28,359 homeopathy is a lot is but it works on 636 00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:30,249 animals and children therefore it's real 637 00:27:35,549 --> 00:27:32,710 but that is really the placebo effect on 638 00:27:37,139 --> 00:27:35,559 the person observing the animal of the 639 00:27:39,659 --> 00:27:37,149 short child isn't it yeah I forget 640 00:27:42,089 --> 00:27:39,669 there's a nice article on placebo effect 641 00:27:45,479 --> 00:27:42,099 in animals on spm blanket on the guys 642 00:27:47,879 --> 00:27:45,489 name who wrote it he's a veterinarian oh 643 00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:47,889 yeah that's an excellent review but 644 00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:50,710 again is you're getting it fed through 645 00:27:56,909 --> 00:27:53,679 the lens as it were of the dog owner or 646 00:27:59,820 --> 00:27:56,919 the parent and you know how they report 647 00:28:03,810 --> 00:27:59,830 it you'd like to have an objective 648 00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:03,820 endpoint you know as Fineman said the 649 00:28:08,579 --> 00:28:05,440 whole purpose of studies is to try not 650 00:28:11,339 --> 00:28:08,589 to fool yourself and most people are 651 00:28:12,930 --> 00:28:11,349 spending the time fooling themselves is 652 00:28:16,139 --> 00:28:12,940 there any benefit instead of trying to 653 00:28:18,690 --> 00:28:16,149 harness these effects to perhaps improve 654 00:28:21,709 --> 00:28:18,700 the outcomes of your patients even if 655 00:28:23,879 --> 00:28:21,719 that little additional bit is placebo 656 00:28:25,950 --> 00:28:23,889 that's an interesting and all that 657 00:28:27,479 --> 00:28:25,960 giving it I feel like Bill Clinton it 658 00:28:29,940 --> 00:28:27,489 all depends on what the definition of is 659 00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:29,950 is it opens now you gotta find what you 660 00:28:33,380 --> 00:28:30,310 can 661 00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:33,390 to be a placebo intervention I mean 662 00:28:39,780 --> 00:28:36,400 patient physician interactions is a 663 00:28:41,820 --> 00:28:39,790 complex relationship and I know when I 664 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:41,830 walk into a patient's room that how I 665 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:44,050 say things and what I say and how I 666 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:46,690 present it has a lot of power to 667 00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:49,690 motivate them or D motivate them to get 668 00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:51,760 them the up and about and moving or not 669 00:28:59,160 --> 00:28:55,360 and I you can't ever lie to patients 670 00:29:01,080 --> 00:28:59,170 that is verboten I mean but you there's 671 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:01,090 a lot of ways you can tell the truth you 672 00:29:03,810 --> 00:29:02,290 can tell them you have a fifty percent 673 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:03,820 chance of failing or fifty percent 674 00:29:07,890 --> 00:29:06,850 chance of getting better I'm gonna tell 675 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:07,900 me up a percent chance of getting better 676 00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:10,090 if I think the patient's looking better 677 00:29:14,250 --> 00:29:12,640 I always tell them you're looking good 678 00:29:16,770 --> 00:29:14,260 today there's some there's someone there 679 00:29:18,780 --> 00:29:16,780 you look good you know get out and start 680 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:18,790 walking you get out of here soon I try 681 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:21,010 to be enthusiastic I upbeat with the 682 00:29:25,530 --> 00:29:23,050 patients as appropriate and is that a 683 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:25,540 placebo effect probably am I harnessing 684 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:28,810 the patient's belief in me and the 685 00:29:33,270 --> 00:29:30,970 system and the interaction to get them 686 00:29:35,100 --> 00:29:33,280 better yeah you got to do that sort of 687 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:35,110 stuff but you can't give someone a pill 688 00:29:38,010 --> 00:29:36,010 and say you're going to be better to 689 00:29:40,350 --> 00:29:38,020 take this one is going to do nothing and 690 00:29:42,870 --> 00:29:40,360 if pain is a unique thing because 691 00:29:46,940 --> 00:29:42,880 there's a huge in the biz we call it a 692 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:46,950 super tutorial component there's a big 693 00:29:53,730 --> 00:29:50,170 psychological emotional component with 694 00:29:55,710 --> 00:29:53,740 pain and if you've ever had pain and 695 00:29:57,660 --> 00:29:55,720 I've had a lot in my day you know it 696 00:29:59,700 --> 00:29:57,670 hurts more at eleven at night when 697 00:30:01,020 --> 00:29:59,710 you're lying in bed that it doesn't 11 698 00:30:03,270 --> 00:30:01,030 in the afternoon when you're busy at 699 00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:03,280 work you know if you're tired you heard 700 00:30:08,610 --> 00:30:06,880 more than if you not tired that and 701 00:30:11,910 --> 00:30:08,620 there's a lot of psychological / light 702 00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:11,920 the pain that is not that makes it more 703 00:30:15,810 --> 00:30:13,900 difficult to interpret so yeah you can 704 00:30:16,890 --> 00:30:15,820 counsel them you're going to get placebo 705 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:16,900 and your paints going to get better and 706 00:30:21,270 --> 00:30:17,890 I believe that because you're going to 707 00:30:24,060 --> 00:30:21,280 relieve the psychological overlay to the 708 00:30:25,950 --> 00:30:24,070 pain which makes it very any olivia is 709 00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:25,960 always weird you'll see somebody who who 710 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:28,240 is passing a kidney stone which has to 711 00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:30,370 be the worst pain ever sorry to all the 712 00:30:35,670 --> 00:30:31,840 women out there who say it's childbirth 713 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:35,680 haha childbirth is number two no I'm not 714 00:30:40,070 --> 00:30:38,530 asking any stolen or not that's a child 715 00:30:43,039 --> 00:30:40,080 email him not me yeah 716 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:43,049 so the cutie stone just looks worse and 717 00:30:46,009 --> 00:30:44,610 I would love to hear from anybody that's 718 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:46,019 both paths two kidneys don't an had a 719 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:49,529 child let's see what they said but would 720 00:30:53,029 --> 00:30:51,090 you say I don't need anything and other 721 00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:53,039 people who stub their toe and just act 722 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:54,720 like you know then can I have some 723 00:30:58,990 --> 00:30:57,090 dilaudid for it I mean the the ability 724 00:31:02,000 --> 00:30:59,000 for people to deal of pain is 725 00:31:03,980 --> 00:31:02,010 interesting in its variety so there's a 726 00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:03,990 huge psychological and you get secondary 727 00:31:07,909 --> 00:31:06,750 gain from some people like narcotics so 728 00:31:10,340 --> 00:31:07,919 they'll play up the pain for the 729 00:31:12,590 --> 00:31:10,350 narcotics so don't I just want to finish 730 00:31:14,509 --> 00:31:12,600 up by asking you a question about on the 731 00:31:16,250 --> 00:31:14,519 topic of antidepressants and they cop a 732 00:31:18,529 --> 00:31:16,260 lot of criticism for purely being based 733 00:31:20,450 --> 00:31:18,539 on placebo or for having a large amount 734 00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:20,460 of their effect is placebo but when 735 00:31:25,220 --> 00:31:22,080 we're talking about subjective things 736 00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:25,230 and one and I guess depression is not 737 00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:27,600 necessarily a psychological illness in 738 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:28,830 all cases I mean there is some evidence 739 00:31:35,389 --> 00:31:32,850 or biochemical balances but gee I mean 740 00:31:37,220 --> 00:31:35,399 big farmer often criticized for that 741 00:31:38,509 --> 00:31:37,230 because you know there's some evidence I 742 00:31:40,580 --> 00:31:38,519 up to forty to sixty percent of that 743 00:31:42,980 --> 00:31:40,590 effect is placebo but we can't really 744 00:31:44,690 --> 00:31:42,990 avoid that when it comes to that kind of 745 00:31:47,180 --> 00:31:44,700 issue can we know there's always going 746 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:47,190 to do with illnesses a psychological 747 00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:50,850 component and depression is one of those 748 00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:53,039 and you're going to get those effects 749 00:31:57,799 --> 00:31:55,710 and the natural history of disease you 750 00:31:59,360 --> 00:31:57,809 know all of the three most dangerous 751 00:32:01,370 --> 00:31:59,370 words in medicine or in my experience 752 00:32:02,919 --> 00:32:01,380 but we all have the experience of people 753 00:32:05,509 --> 00:32:02,929 whose lives have been turned around 754 00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:05,519 rapidly by antidepressants warhead 755 00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:07,980 refractory depression for there's a 756 00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:09,600 horrible disease for those who suffer 757 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:11,519 from it and you know studies are never 758 00:32:14,629 --> 00:32:12,570 as good as when they're published 759 00:32:16,220 --> 00:32:14,639 anybody as a clinician knows that I mean 760 00:32:17,659 --> 00:32:16,230 they talk about it oh there's been a 761 00:32:20,269 --> 00:32:17,669 brouhaha lightly about the decline 762 00:32:22,399 --> 00:32:20,279 effects you know but if you practice 763 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:22,409 medicine you realize my rule of thumb is 764 00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:23,970 always the drugs are only half as good 765 00:32:27,919 --> 00:32:25,710 as the published studies in the real 766 00:32:29,659 --> 00:32:27,929 world you don't have all the bias and 767 00:32:31,879 --> 00:32:29,669 this patient selection all things that 768 00:32:33,139 --> 00:32:31,889 go into developing a perfect trial in 769 00:32:34,970 --> 00:32:33,149 the real world everything works about 770 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:34,980 half as good as the published stuff and 771 00:32:40,129 --> 00:32:38,130 so since you think about that for most 772 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:40,139 scams they have barely any effect at all 773 00:32:43,310 --> 00:32:41,730 so if they're half as good as barely 774 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:43,320 there probably sliding over into the 775 00:32:45,670 --> 00:32:45,090 negative in terms of any effect they're 776 00:32:47,020 --> 00:32:45,680 going to have them 777 00:32:48,790 --> 00:32:47,030 well the part causing disease rather 778 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:48,800 than treating it yeah that's not true 779 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:50,090 because my Nana who lives down the road 780 00:32:54,430 --> 00:32:52,130 from my friend told my dog's brother 781 00:32:55,780 --> 00:32:54,440 that it works therefore it works just 782 00:32:57,310 --> 00:32:55,790 good enough for me yeah it's a 783 00:33:01,750 --> 00:32:57,320 testimonial right there for you Mike 784 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:01,760 Christmas yeah talking dog guys target 785 00:33:08,260 --> 00:33:04,730 dogs and unicorn farts see you let 786 00:33:09,910 --> 00:33:08,270 something yeah yeah yeah well mark 787 00:33:11,350 --> 00:33:09,920 thanks very much for joining us today I 788 00:33:13,060 --> 00:33:11,360 was getting going and I look forward to 789 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:13,070 the panel on Saturday where can a 790 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:14,930 license find out more about you and your 791 00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:17,210 podcast my website is more marked 792 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:20,000 squarespace com and in my podcasts are 793 00:33:24,940 --> 00:33:23,210 on three of them are on itunes and then 794 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:24,950 I write for science-based medicine and 795 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:26,450 the infectious disease blogger for 796 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:28,970 medscape he does that make the shill by 797 00:33:34,930 --> 00:33:32,810 right from sk oh I'm a Smith 798 00:33:39,270 --> 00:33:34,940 skype yo man national energy to help no 799 00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:39,280 as ask it's an old god I'm Michelle I 800 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:46,880 Rochelle Oh official kiss you oh my god 801 00:33:54,130 --> 00:33:50,210 Oh second is it second hand showing but 802 00:33:56,110 --> 00:33:54,140 I was shown the world oh I'm sorry God 803 00:33:57,790 --> 00:33:56,120 kill myself didn't please don't please 804 00:34:01,840 --> 00:33:57,800 I've got to the turn of the opening 805 00:34:04,810 --> 00:34:01,850 function of Terran I wouldn't be Parma 806 00:34:15,850 --> 00:34:04,820 shield sure okay thanks for joining us 807 00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:19,610 hi this is scary papi i am ross Fletcher 808 00:34:25,550 --> 00:34:22,110 okay Ross hey we're from a podcast 809 00:34:27,290 --> 00:34:25,560 called oh no Ross and Carrie we find out 810 00:34:28,669 --> 00:34:27,300 what happens when you show up and ask 811 00:34:30,919 --> 00:34:28,679 questions we've hung out with the 812 00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:30,929 Cabalists the Mormons we've gone and 813 00:34:35,930 --> 00:34:33,510 gotten ear candle gone to the Sikhs we 814 00:34:37,550 --> 00:34:35,940 show up so you don't have to so find out 815 00:34:39,650 --> 00:34:37,560 where we're going next we'll even have 816 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:39,660 special episodes where we have famous 817 00:34:44,060 --> 00:34:42,090 guests like Brian Dalton from mr. deity 818 00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:44,070 you heard that awesome theme music he 819 00:34:50,270 --> 00:34:46,110 wrote that you should come visit us at 820 00:34:53,060 --> 00:34:50,280 Oh No podcast.com or facebook.com slash 821 00:34:57,170 --> 00:34:53,070 on rack what the hell's honor a cross Oh 822 00:35:03,310 --> 00:34:57,180 in RAC oh oh no Ross and Carrie that's 823 00:35:11,809 --> 00:35:08,510 here's my not spooky action at the 824 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:14,400 may not hear reporting for the skeptic 825 00:35:17,339 --> 00:35:15,970 zone tonight because I want to find out 826 00:35:19,470 --> 00:35:17,349 from two of the performers that about to 827 00:35:21,450 --> 00:35:19,480 go on why do you think skeptics and 828 00:35:22,980 --> 00:35:21,460 atheists get such a bad rap for not 829 00:35:24,089 --> 00:35:22,990 being party people and being dull which 830 00:35:26,220 --> 00:35:24,099 is part of the reason they wanted to put 831 00:35:28,349 --> 00:35:26,230 this on tonight Matt you first mate as 832 00:35:30,510 --> 00:35:28,359 well I think it's probably just because 833 00:35:33,299 --> 00:35:30,520 there's not an awful lot of exposure to 834 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:33,309 atheism in mainstream culture so it's 835 00:35:37,319 --> 00:35:35,770 it's only a fairly narrow minded 836 00:35:39,450 --> 00:35:37,329 stereotypical view that would create 837 00:35:40,829 --> 00:35:39,460 that I think if you actually saw what 838 00:35:43,559 --> 00:35:40,839 was happening in here you'd see a lot of 839 00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:43,569 people enjoying themselves so it's that 840 00:35:48,539 --> 00:35:46,720 just comes from a lack of awareness I 841 00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:48,549 suppose yeah I mean they tend to get a 842 00:35:52,019 --> 00:35:50,079 reputation around the campus as being 843 00:35:53,339 --> 00:35:52,029 the Nerds for some reason although most 844 00:35:55,529 --> 00:35:53,349 of them don't do the scientist there's 845 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:55,539 just as many in the arts yeah to be 846 00:35:59,789 --> 00:35:56,890 honest I wouldn't know that much about 847 00:36:01,349 --> 00:35:59,799 that I'm never been a student so that's 848 00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:01,359 probably not my place to comment on it 849 00:36:06,299 --> 00:36:03,430 but I don't know I've got made to a 850 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:06,309 nerds and they're hilarious so I don't 851 00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:08,410 see what being intelligent and 852 00:36:12,990 --> 00:36:11,440 articulate has to do with having fun and 853 00:36:14,609 --> 00:36:13,000 cool so you're the warm-up back so what 854 00:36:16,620 --> 00:36:14,619 sort of you know you've got Simon here 855 00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:16,630 now you obviously can't do too good well 856 00:36:19,470 --> 00:36:17,710 she gonna make someone look bad so 857 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:19,480 what's going through your head right now 858 00:36:24,690 --> 00:36:21,730 minutes before the crucial processing on 859 00:36:26,519 --> 00:36:24,700 to the threshold of the stage absolutely 860 00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:26,529 nothing I try not to think before I go 861 00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:28,960 on stage let's just go out and do it and 862 00:36:32,789 --> 00:36:31,510 enjoy it it was that what style about 863 00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:32,799 comedy will be doing tonight 864 00:36:37,289 --> 00:36:34,089 unfortunately I haven't heard you 865 00:36:40,710 --> 00:36:37,299 perform before so I'm I would describe 866 00:36:43,170 --> 00:36:40,720 myself as a surrealist / absurdist it's 867 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:43,180 it's out there does that mean a lot of 868 00:36:47,099 --> 00:36:44,770 stuff free wheels on stage and your head 869 00:36:49,260 --> 00:36:47,109 a lot of stuff is made up on stage it 870 00:36:51,150 --> 00:36:49,270 depends on the audience if if people are 871 00:36:53,849 --> 00:36:51,160 willing to interact with me I'm always 872 00:36:55,260 --> 00:36:53,859 happy to be in the back but if every day 873 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:55,270 and then you get a crowd he just wants 874 00:36:58,529 --> 00:36:57,130 to sit in here punchlines and I'm happy 875 00:37:00,329 --> 00:36:58,539 to give them to him so just say what 876 00:37:02,430 --> 00:37:00,339 happens I suppose we'll have a good time 877 00:37:04,319 --> 00:37:02,440 up there cheers man I look at the other 878 00:37:05,549 --> 00:37:04,329 non nervous looking person normally arms 879 00:37:07,410 --> 00:37:05,559 nervous as hell before I go on and do 880 00:37:09,059 --> 00:37:07,420 anything so Simon why you so relax it 881 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:09,069 and he's relaxed to you like it goes on 882 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:10,450 opium or something what's happening here 883 00:37:13,950 --> 00:37:12,130 no we're just hanging out I'm you know 884 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:13,960 been doing this for a while and someone 885 00:37:19,010 --> 00:37:15,930 said do get stage fright I go no I get 886 00:37:20,570 --> 00:37:19,020 stage cravings like I most of my life is 887 00:37:23,420 --> 00:37:20,580 dedicated to trying to get more stage 888 00:37:25,820 --> 00:37:23,430 time so this is what I'm about so I mean 889 00:37:27,770 --> 00:37:25,830 I'm enjoying the anticipation and when 890 00:37:30,290 --> 00:37:27,780 I'm up there I'm enjoying it as well now 891 00:37:32,750 --> 00:37:30,300 look Rob viously a funny guy a guy like 892 00:37:34,910 --> 00:37:32,760 who is a comedian and people said oh 893 00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:34,920 there's an atheist skeptical comic 894 00:37:39,110 --> 00:37:37,440 coming I think that that's great but I 895 00:37:40,850 --> 00:37:39,120 mean do you really need those labels I 896 00:37:42,350 --> 00:37:40,860 mean to me you just seemed like a really 897 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:42,360 interesting guy does great word play 898 00:37:49,010 --> 00:37:45,570 from your website well the labels can be 899 00:37:53,420 --> 00:37:49,020 helpful in one sense because when i was 900 00:37:55,190 --> 00:37:53,430 first finding my voices as far as 901 00:37:58,490 --> 00:37:55,200 expressing my beliefs in my thoughts 902 00:38:01,010 --> 00:37:58,500 when I was about 18 19 it was important 903 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:01,020 for me to know that they were validated 904 00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:03,090 by a body of people like skeptics an 905 00:38:08,450 --> 00:38:05,760 atheist so that did help but beyond that 906 00:38:10,490 --> 00:38:08,460 I just wanted to be positive about what 907 00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:10,500 I do life and what I do believe in and 908 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:13,680 that's I'm them big psychology person so 909 00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:15,810 what I want to see is I want to see 910 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:17,910 comedy about psychology and about people 911 00:38:22,190 --> 00:38:20,490 and about interesting things so I write 912 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:22,200 the show that I would want to see and 913 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:25,050 that's just my philosophy that if I 914 00:38:28,580 --> 00:38:26,850 write what I would want to see hopefully 915 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:28,590 there's an audience out there who does 916 00:38:33,740 --> 00:38:30,930 too and generally that sort of open 917 00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:33,750 overlaps with the atheist societies in 918 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:35,510 the skeptic societies 919 00:38:39,310 --> 00:38:37,850 now your new shows called 10 things are 920 00:38:42,010 --> 00:38:39,320 no value is that correct that is correct 921 00:38:43,690 --> 00:38:42,020 why only 10 I mean anything to do with 922 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:43,700 psychology will tell you there that you 923 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:45,410 open the book of psychological illnesses 924 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:48,290 there's a lot more than 10 sure is and a 925 00:38:54,610 --> 00:38:50,450 lot more coming what's my favorite new 926 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:54,620 one I orthorexia nervosa that's my 927 00:38:58,180 --> 00:38:56,330 favorite new one that's the unhealthy 928 00:38:59,740 --> 00:38:58,190 obsession with healthy eating that means 929 00:39:01,210 --> 00:38:59,750 you'll you'll eat a carrot and if you 930 00:39:02,590 --> 00:39:01,220 don't take that carrot to work you will 931 00:39:04,390 --> 00:39:02,600 eat nothing until you get home except 932 00:39:05,590 --> 00:39:04,400 maybe elite I've made pies on the way 933 00:39:09,070 --> 00:39:05,600 home because she didn't take the carrot 934 00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:09,080 the irony is beautiful it's there are 935 00:39:13,030 --> 00:39:10,880 way more than 10 things but when you 936 00:39:15,910 --> 00:39:13,040 want to package a show and it's a 937 00:39:17,980 --> 00:39:15,920 50-minute show for fringe festival you 938 00:39:20,890 --> 00:39:17,990 package the show and you say what at one 939 00:39:22,990 --> 00:39:20,900 of my 10 highlights and what am I most 940 00:39:24,220 --> 00:39:23,000 excited about and then if you sort of 941 00:39:25,540 --> 00:39:24,230 plant that seed with the audience and 942 00:39:26,770 --> 00:39:25,550 they'll go out and they'll get excited 943 00:39:29,380 --> 00:39:26,780 too and they'll go explore the the 944 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:29,390 millions of exciting things that that 945 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:31,730 that the mind holds now big business for 946 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:33,770 a skeptical podcast is there any kind of 947 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:36,290 whoo is there any kind of illogic that 948 00:39:40,180 --> 00:39:38,090 annoys you the most for some people it's 949 00:39:41,980 --> 00:39:40,190 astrology of course a lot of people hate 950 00:39:44,290 --> 00:39:41,990 the anti-vaxxers of course what's the 951 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:44,300 one that really annoys you the most well 952 00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:46,610 I don't actually focus on them I suppose 953 00:39:53,110 --> 00:39:50,150 when I was 18 and 19 they it was just 954 00:39:54,940 --> 00:39:53,120 everything it was just the the style of 955 00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:54,950 thinking of believing without a good 956 00:39:59,140 --> 00:39:57,530 reason that approach to thinking was 957 00:40:01,390 --> 00:39:59,150 something that annoyed me but now I just 958 00:40:04,150 --> 00:40:01,400 focus my energy on the things that are 959 00:40:06,010 --> 00:40:04,160 positive to me on on learning and 960 00:40:08,290 --> 00:40:06,020 discovery and I think there's an 961 00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:08,300 excitement of there comes from 962 00:40:12,190 --> 00:40:10,730 exploration and trying to understand the 963 00:40:14,830 --> 00:40:12,200 world and understand yourself so that's 964 00:40:18,190 --> 00:40:14,840 where my focus lies and why do you think 965 00:40:19,660 --> 00:40:18,200 of skeptics almost considered crackpots 966 00:40:21,310 --> 00:40:19,670 with evidence a lot of people feel about 967 00:40:22,450 --> 00:40:21,320 them that way because they're seem like 968 00:40:23,620 --> 00:40:22,460 they're a bit of weird people you don't 969 00:40:25,330 --> 00:40:23,630 want to talk to because they have an 970 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:25,340 agenda and just because I feel they've 971 00:40:29,490 --> 00:40:27,130 got evidence they're strange 972 00:40:31,620 --> 00:40:29,500 well it's always reacting to the most 973 00:40:33,890 --> 00:40:31,630 extreme in that group so the most 974 00:40:37,050 --> 00:40:33,900 extreme in that group will be very 975 00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:37,060 adamant about at every sin every 976 00:40:42,330 --> 00:40:39,730 situation state all the facts and always 977 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:42,340 refer to evidence evidence evidence but 978 00:40:50,310 --> 00:40:45,850 I mean that is just the sensational 979 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:50,320 ization of that group but I bigger the 980 00:40:53,550 --> 00:40:51,610 bigger the group is the more diversity 981 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:53,560 there is in it hands a lot of people 982 00:40:56,070 --> 00:40:54,970 have been signing up tonight I've 983 00:40:57,660 --> 00:40:56,080 noticed people when they're buying 984 00:40:59,610 --> 00:40:57,670 tickets are signed up and there is 985 00:41:01,230 --> 00:40:59,620 diverse as they get so as you said 986 00:41:03,450 --> 00:41:01,240 earlier they're not necessarily just 987 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:03,460 science students there you know 988 00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:05,290 economics students and commerce students 989 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:08,310 and art students because if you 990 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:11,410 appreciate a style of thought then you 991 00:41:15,180 --> 00:41:12,970 can appreciate what skeptics and 992 00:41:16,650 --> 00:41:15,190 atheists are about it and they seem like 993 00:41:17,820 --> 00:41:16,660 a bunch of people you wouldn't mind 994 00:41:19,650 --> 00:41:17,830 working to whether it looks like they're 995 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:19,660 going to be a fun crowd tonight I think 996 00:41:23,850 --> 00:41:21,850 so yeah I'm actually quite excited as I 997 00:41:26,070 --> 00:41:23,860 hear the buzz slowly rise in the room so 998 00:41:27,540 --> 00:41:26,080 looking forward to it and what are you 999 00:41:28,980 --> 00:41:27,550 coming up soon are you doing at other 1000 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:28,990 conferences you've got the fringe 1001 00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:30,370 festival in Melbourne coming up what's 1002 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:33,280 happening well yes I opened my my brand 1003 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:36,010 new show in melbourne next week for a 1004 00:41:41,130 --> 00:41:38,170 Melbourne fringe and I've got a lot of 1005 00:41:43,590 --> 00:41:41,140 workshops going on as well a lot of non 1006 00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:43,600 for profit groups find my skill sets 1007 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:45,310 useful in in the world of entertainment 1008 00:41:51,990 --> 00:41:48,010 so I like to do those as well and that I 1009 00:41:54,150 --> 00:41:52,000 think that's I think that's useful too 1010 00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:54,160 for me I feel I feel useful i feel like 1011 00:42:00,120 --> 00:41:58,450 i've got some utilitarian value it when 1012 00:42:01,620 --> 00:42:00,130 i feel like in contributing to not just 1013 00:42:03,990 --> 00:42:01,630 you know making people laugh i'm 1014 00:42:06,060 --> 00:42:04,000 actually imparting some of my skill set 1015 00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:06,070 to other people and let's get some 1016 00:42:08,940 --> 00:42:07,510 labels going here because you know it's 1017 00:42:11,310 --> 00:42:08,950 all about labels sometimes how would you 1018 00:42:13,860 --> 00:42:11,320 describe your style of comedy I've seen 1019 00:42:15,780 --> 00:42:13,870 you do great wordplay I've seen you 1020 00:42:17,370 --> 00:42:15,790 doing it really twisting rounds and 1021 00:42:18,660 --> 00:42:17,380 funny situations turning them on their 1022 00:42:19,980 --> 00:42:18,670 head how would you describe it for 1023 00:42:22,980 --> 00:42:19,990 people who haven't seen you before I 1024 00:42:25,170 --> 00:42:22,990 suppose I'm very lyrical and I'm very 1025 00:42:27,450 --> 00:42:25,180 logical so if I'm talking about a 1026 00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:27,460 situational I'll break the logic down in 1027 00:42:33,510 --> 00:42:29,680 it and try to explore the ideas behind 1028 00:42:36,150 --> 00:42:33,520 something so I yeah I think lyrical and 1029 00:42:37,770 --> 00:42:36,160 logical are they're not really labels 1030 00:42:40,020 --> 00:42:37,780 but they're the best attitude 1031 00:42:42,540 --> 00:42:40,030 to describe what you will see when you 1032 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:42,550 watch my show look you get up there or 1033 00:42:45,090 --> 00:42:43,570 get out of your face you have a great 1034 00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:45,100 show tonight is I very much appreciated 1035 00:42:49,770 --> 00:42:48,310 cheers well that may not hit reporting 1036 00:42:51,390 --> 00:42:49,780 for the skipped exam with a few people 1037 00:42:52,650 --> 00:42:51,400 and i'm with brett who was one of the 1038 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:52,660 people that has tried to organize 1039 00:42:56,490 --> 00:42:54,490 putting this on now basically tonight 1040 00:42:57,870 --> 00:42:56,500 you have tried to prove that atheists 1041 00:43:00,720 --> 00:42:57,880 and skeptics can be party people 1042 00:43:02,670 --> 00:43:00,730 definitely definitely like the whole way 1043 00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:02,680 we're not here to have a go up religion 1044 00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:04,780 tonight we here to talk about the 1045 00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:06,910 positive things that you can experience 1046 00:43:13,530 --> 00:43:10,240 without religion maybe yeah just have a 1047 00:43:14,490 --> 00:43:13,540 lot of fun otherwise okay and look at a 1048 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:14,500 few of the people here they're going to 1049 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:16,210 be here these the assistant guy that's 1050 00:43:19,710 --> 00:43:17,650 been organizing this what are you 1051 00:43:20,940 --> 00:43:19,720 expecting to have happen tonight we're 1052 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:20,950 just hoping everyone we have a good time 1053 00:43:25,230 --> 00:43:22,810 and yeah just got a bit a laugh out of 1054 00:43:27,930 --> 00:43:25,240 it nicely why do you think skeptics get 1055 00:43:31,170 --> 00:43:27,940 such a bad rap is being nerds I suppose 1056 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:31,180 skepticism is mostly people interpreters 1057 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:34,510 a negative term mostly because everyone 1058 00:43:39,980 --> 00:43:37,570 seeks to discredit any ideas that people 1059 00:43:42,059 --> 00:43:39,990 might put forward so 1060 00:43:43,470 --> 00:43:42,069 let's have a drink I'll hang on we 1061 00:43:45,210 --> 00:43:43,480 should think about that first is that 1062 00:43:46,890 --> 00:43:45,220 the problem you think they've got it's 1063 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:46,900 probably a bit extreme but yeah probably 1064 00:43:51,359 --> 00:43:48,010 with something along those lines here 1065 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:51,369 and why do you think you know skipped it 1066 00:43:55,890 --> 00:43:54,130 to get such a bad rap I suppose it's 1067 00:43:58,349 --> 00:43:55,900 just a stereotype like a lot of 1068 00:44:00,930 --> 00:43:58,359 stereotypes out there and once people 1069 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:00,940 get an idea and they had then it's hard 1070 00:44:04,799 --> 00:44:02,770 to change the view of a lot of people 1071 00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:04,809 how would you describe the audience's 1072 00:44:08,609 --> 00:44:07,510 here in our they like fantastic food 1073 00:44:10,890 --> 00:44:08,619 group of people that are here to have a 1074 00:44:13,529 --> 00:44:10,900 good time and hopefully get some good 1075 00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:13,539 entertainment and why do you think 1076 00:44:19,710 --> 00:44:15,609 skeptics he had such a bad rap because 1077 00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:19,720 son ISM so special and the Sun rules the 1078 00:44:29,220 --> 00:44:24,160 world and it's the major player in the 1079 00:44:31,260 --> 00:44:29,230 worlds spiritual belief system and if we 1080 00:44:33,630 --> 00:44:31,270 all could believe in the Sun there 1081 00:44:36,569 --> 00:44:33,640 wouldn't be any need for God because God 1082 00:44:38,970 --> 00:44:36,579 stops can I say that even though you 1083 00:44:41,460 --> 00:44:38,980 seem to have a non deist way of thinking 1084 00:44:43,799 --> 00:44:41,470 the burden of proof is a hell of a lot 1085 00:44:45,839 --> 00:44:43,809 on you after saying that I didn't 1086 00:44:48,539 --> 00:44:45,849 understand what you said well the burden 1087 00:44:50,940 --> 00:44:48,549 of proof was Russia proof I the Sun you 1088 00:44:54,420 --> 00:44:50,950 look at the Sun and he see the proof if 1089 00:44:58,859 --> 00:44:54,430 it wasn't there we wouldn't exist 1090 00:45:00,540 --> 00:44:58,869 the sun's the duty of the world now 1091 00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:00,550 Martin I'm tonight's a bit of an atheist 1092 00:45:05,250 --> 00:45:03,670 blowout skeptical comedy night why do 1093 00:45:07,020 --> 00:45:05,260 you think skeptics gets in a bit of a 1094 00:45:08,849 --> 00:45:07,030 bad rap for being party poopers and 1095 00:45:11,339 --> 00:45:08,859 maybe not that much fun I didn't know 1096 00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:11,349 they did well look this is in the 1097 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:13,089 general community you say you know I'm a 1098 00:45:16,109 --> 00:45:14,650 skeptic and they look at you like what 1099 00:45:18,780 --> 00:45:16,119 what is there something you don't like 1100 00:45:20,069 --> 00:45:18,790 or something here and maybe atheist is 1101 00:45:22,140 --> 00:45:20,079 well going to be a rap like that you 1102 00:45:23,819 --> 00:45:22,150 know yeah look I don't know I'm 1103 00:45:24,809 --> 00:45:23,829 efficient so we get that rap too so 1104 00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:24,819 maybe that's something we've got in 1105 00:45:28,799 --> 00:45:26,800 common well maybe that there's common 1106 00:45:30,030 --> 00:45:28,809 stereotypes of both swords yeah that 1107 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:30,040 could be right yeah actually could you 1108 00:45:33,180 --> 00:45:31,210 tell me what your favorite book of the 1109 00:45:35,490 --> 00:45:33,190 Bible is because i like i like having a 1110 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:35,500 chat oh I made look look they're all 1111 00:45:40,049 --> 00:45:38,530 good maybe I'll go with Romans and sets 1112 00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:40,059 out what Christians believe so clearly 1113 00:45:43,890 --> 00:45:42,730 yeah and you do often mix with the 1114 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:43,900 atheists and have a bit of a chat with 1115 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:45,010 them yeah we've got a really good 1116 00:45:49,140 --> 00:45:47,170 relationship there's a bunch of us 1117 00:45:51,420 --> 00:45:49,150 Christians who tend to come to events 1118 00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:51,430 the idea society puts on and likewise 1119 00:45:54,809 --> 00:45:53,650 they come on to some of ours and we kept 1120 00:45:56,430 --> 00:45:54,819 up and talk so we've got a good 1121 00:45:57,809 --> 00:45:56,440 relationship this is so cool because 1122 00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:57,819 I've spoken to bread about you guys 1123 00:46:00,180 --> 00:45:58,960 doing this and it's great to actually 1124 00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:00,190 meet one of the guys because I think 1125 00:46:03,930 --> 00:46:02,049 it's great to engage and discuss what 1126 00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:03,940 you think and what you think about what 1127 00:46:07,319 --> 00:46:05,710 other person thinks and if you find that 1128 00:46:09,539 --> 00:46:07,329 a good thing as a Christian I definitely 1129 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:09,549 absolutely yeah I think we need to I 1130 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:11,770 mean I think one thing we do have in 1131 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:12,970 common is we're both interested in the 1132 00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:15,010 question about what life's all about and 1133 00:46:19,770 --> 00:46:18,160 so we can engage in a discussion about 1134 00:46:21,420 --> 00:46:19,780 the big questions in life and I think 1135 00:46:22,829 --> 00:46:21,430 that's important and do you think there 1136 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:22,839 is any main common ground between 1137 00:46:28,319 --> 00:46:24,970 atheists and theists that's a general 1138 00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:28,329 common ground I think talking to I think 1139 00:46:33,660 --> 00:46:30,730 to say two things of common ground I 1140 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:33,670 think most of a lot of people i take 1141 00:46:38,069 --> 00:46:35,770 talked to in the Atheist society have a 1142 00:46:39,780 --> 00:46:38,079 similar view of truth to Christians in 1143 00:46:41,940 --> 00:46:39,790 that they believe there is absolute 1144 00:46:44,460 --> 00:46:41,950 truth and that we can find it through 1145 00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:44,470 searching secondly I think another point 1146 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:46,390 of common ground is that where a lot of 1147 00:46:49,319 --> 00:46:47,410 guys in the eighth in society are 1148 00:46:51,599 --> 00:46:49,329 interested in the question whereas I 1149 00:46:53,700 --> 00:46:51,609 think maybe there are many people 1150 00:46:55,230 --> 00:46:53,710 students at uni or just in society in 1151 00:46:58,289 --> 00:46:55,240 general who are quite apathetic about 1152 00:46:59,670 --> 00:46:58,299 even asking what's what are we here for 1153 00:47:03,480 --> 00:46:59,680 what's life about 1154 00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:03,490 yeah so I think it's time for laughs 1155 00:47:06,210 --> 00:47:04,720 about having some laughs and I'd so 1156 00:47:16,250 --> 00:47:06,220 enjoy yourself so thanks very much shake 1157 00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:19,440 good evening ladies and gentlemen my 1158 00:47:27,390 --> 00:47:22,240 name is Manny be part-time comedian 1159 00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:27,400 full-time taxidermy enthusiast it's nice 1160 00:47:34,859 --> 00:47:31,359 to be here actually have this little 1161 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:34,869 ambition in comedy to to walk out onto 1162 00:47:39,930 --> 00:47:37,210 the stage and ask the crowd how they're 1163 00:47:43,319 --> 00:47:39,940 going and have everyone reply just in 1164 00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:43,329 unison Maddie we're going great in fact 1165 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:44,800 we're having such a good night that 1166 00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:46,210 afterwards where we're going to chip in 1167 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:48,160 and construct the 12-foot origami funny 1168 00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:49,690 bone in commemoration of tonight's 1169 00:48:20,539 --> 00:47:59,089 I didn't even hear that what I'm going 1170 00:48:22,910 --> 00:48:20,549 to shoot it's funny hello Newcastle oh 1171 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:22,920 how the old you represent New Castle 1172 00:48:26,870 --> 00:48:25,290 Rock their ambassadors right at the 1173 00:48:29,780 --> 00:48:26,880 front good to see you alone we're 1174 00:48:32,270 --> 00:48:29,790 excited I'm going to silence you with my 1175 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:32,280 up good to see hello everyone this is 1176 00:48:36,020 --> 00:48:33,930 nice thank you for having me I've got 1177 00:48:37,700 --> 00:48:36,030 such a good feeling about this I've got 1178 00:48:38,770 --> 00:48:37,710 such a good feeling in my uterus right 1179 00:48:41,329 --> 00:48:38,780 now we're going to have a wonderful 1180 00:48:42,770 --> 00:48:41,339 wonderful night I've been traveling a 1181 00:48:45,380 --> 00:48:42,780 lot actually I'm pleased to be in 1182 00:48:47,569 --> 00:48:45,390 Newcastle I was been doing cruise ships 1183 00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:47,579 around australia i was on the Princess 1184 00:48:52,250 --> 00:48:50,160 dawn sends it all sounds exciting 1185 00:48:54,289 --> 00:48:52,260 doesn't the Princess dawn luxury cruise 1186 00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:54,299 ship it takes you to strange and exotic 1187 00:49:00,859 --> 00:48:59,280 places like I get to Perth they say just 1188 00:49:03,289 --> 00:49:00,869 remember there's three hours behind 1189 00:49:08,690 --> 00:49:03,299 Nolan I got three hours I think you've 1190 00:49:10,250 --> 00:49:08,700 been generous by about in years but i 1191 00:49:12,289 --> 00:49:10,260 had no trouble I thought I got to go to 1192 00:49:13,819 --> 00:49:12,299 some great places when I was at turn 1193 00:49:15,349 --> 00:49:13,829 some of this stuff around I got to go to 1194 00:49:18,740 --> 00:49:15,359 seal for anyone with the singer waters 1195 00:49:21,380 --> 00:49:18,750 meet me at 101 simple feds in their 1196 00:49:23,809 --> 00:49:21,390 house I went to a nightclub in Singapore 1197 00:49:26,319 --> 00:49:23,819 and I got butcher shop because inside 1198 00:49:30,380 --> 00:49:26,329 the nightclub there were 50 year old men 1199 00:49:33,710 --> 00:49:30,390 would 21 year old girlfriends no just 1200 00:49:35,539 --> 00:49:33,720 water wasn't being I'm 23 if I want to 1201 00:49:37,830 --> 00:49:35,549 feel in life to find a girl who's minus 1202 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:40,440 but it's not appreciating it is everyone 1203 00:49:45,090 --> 00:49:42,250 from Newcastle Gustavo if you're from 1204 00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:45,100 Newcastle born writer what I mean class 1205 00:49:50,730 --> 00:49:46,720 of people I'll give us a look if you're 1206 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:50,740 not from Newcastle oh wow okay well none 1207 00:49:56,100 --> 00:49:53,770 of you cousin Ben I'm going to be here 1208 00:49:58,350 --> 00:49:56,110 today but so far i can say i love 1209 00:50:00,300 --> 00:49:58,360 Newcastle and that would so much I do 1210 00:50:02,460 --> 00:50:00,310 like your new castle wore a piece of 1211 00:50:04,860 --> 00:50:02,470 chocolate cake I would stuff my face 1212 00:50:07,790 --> 00:50:04,870 with it if Newcastle for a gallant steed 1213 00:50:11,220 --> 00:50:07,800 I cried that bad boy into the sunset 1214 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:11,230 Newcastle were sexy lady a sexy lady I 1215 00:50:34,390 --> 00:50:32,440 hey bro oh hey / what's up check it out 1216 00:50:36,370 --> 00:50:34,400 finally a Back to the Future invention 1217 00:50:40,569 --> 00:50:36,380 that has come into existence i present 1218 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:40,579 to you mahavir ball dude that's a BS 1219 00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:42,290 band skateboard deck from ashy 1220 00:50:47,710 --> 00:50:45,440 skateboard yes escape pod without wheel 1221 00:50:50,020 --> 00:50:47,720 yeah you're supposed to buy your own 1222 00:50:51,550 --> 00:50:50,030 wheels and bolt the law and look it has 1223 00:50:54,010 --> 00:50:51,560 a placebo been right here in the 1224 00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:54,020 packaging that must be what powers it 1225 00:50:58,480 --> 00:50:56,000 what are you on about that's right your 1226 00:51:00,579 --> 00:50:58,490 very own hoverboard and skeptic berserk 1227 00:51:02,589 --> 00:51:00,589 um has one to give away dude a skeptic 1228 00:51:04,300 --> 00:51:02,599 Bros calm and click on the comp tab for 1229 00:51:07,569 --> 00:51:04,310 more detail oh no that's a skateboard 1230 00:51:09,460 --> 00:51:07,579 deck right not a hoverboard it doesn't 1231 00:51:11,050 --> 00:51:09,470 actually fly you could get the car I'll 1232 00:51:12,849 --> 00:51:11,060 get my Michael J on hold on to the 1233 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:12,859 bumper and float down the freeway sure 1234 00:51:23,950 --> 00:51:20,810 why not that could be fun now it's time 1235 00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:23,960 for dr. Rachel reports with dr. Rachel 1236 00:51:31,020 --> 00:51:28,730 Dunlop hello listeners and welcome to 1237 00:51:33,460 --> 00:51:31,030 another episode of dr. Rachel reports 1238 00:51:36,190 --> 00:51:33,470 well I know that I bang on a lot about 1239 00:51:38,230 --> 00:51:36,200 the TGA but recently I received another 1240 00:51:40,750 --> 00:51:38,240 reason to be eternally frustrated with 1241 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:40,760 the Australian drug regulator I came 1242 00:51:44,380 --> 00:51:42,530 across an article from Australian doctor 1243 00:51:46,660 --> 00:51:44,390 which described how a complaint against 1244 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:46,670 the makers of nurofen which is a popular 1245 00:51:51,190 --> 00:51:49,490 painkiller in Australia were directed to 1246 00:51:54,010 --> 00:51:51,200 stop claiming their product could go to 1247 00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:54,020 the site of pain now this is because 1248 00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:55,280 they currently have ads on television 1249 00:51:59,819 --> 00:51:57,650 that make this claim and according to 1250 00:52:02,410 --> 00:51:59,829 the article the makers reckitt benckiser 1251 00:52:04,180 --> 00:52:02,420 Australia proprietary limited was 1252 00:52:06,190 --> 00:52:04,190 ordered by the tj's complaints 1253 00:52:07,870 --> 00:52:06,200 resolution panel to withdraw a 1254 00:52:10,329 --> 00:52:07,880 television advertisement for nurofen 1255 00:52:12,099 --> 00:52:10,339 that claimed the product targeted relief 1256 00:52:14,620 --> 00:52:12,109 from pain and goes straight to the 1257 00:52:16,780 --> 00:52:14,630 source of pain however in a statement 1258 00:52:18,190 --> 00:52:16,790 from reckitt benckiser they said they 1259 00:52:20,620 --> 00:52:18,200 did not agree with a number of the 1260 00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:20,630 sanctions imposed by the TGA panel and 1261 00:52:25,359 --> 00:52:23,510 therefore quote nurofen advises that 1262 00:52:27,670 --> 00:52:25,369 consumers will continue to see the 1263 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:27,680 familiar branding of the nurofen target 1264 00:52:33,940 --> 00:52:29,690 and messages of nurofen working at the 1265 00:52:35,620 --> 00:52:33,950 site of pain sigh so of course record 1266 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:35,630 benckiser are by no means the first 1267 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:37,970 company to essentially flip the bird and 1268 00:52:41,770 --> 00:52:40,130 say get stuffed we'll do what we want to 1269 00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:41,780 the TGA 1270 00:52:45,670 --> 00:52:43,250 indeed today's statement follows a 1271 00:52:47,470 --> 00:52:45,680 damning audit of the TGS management of 1272 00:52:49,810 --> 00:52:47,480 complementary and alternative therapies 1273 00:52:51,820 --> 00:52:49,820 which was released recently and it 1274 00:52:53,830 --> 00:52:51,830 essentially described the TGA as having 1275 00:52:56,290 --> 00:52:53,840 no teeth to enforce rulings against 1276 00:52:58,360 --> 00:52:56,300 companies who do the wrong thing now the 1277 00:53:01,060 --> 00:52:58,370 audit came after a review of a random 1278 00:53:02,860 --> 00:53:01,070 sample of listed products listed meaning 1279 00:53:04,930 --> 00:53:02,870 supplements vitamins homeopathic 1280 00:53:07,420 --> 00:53:04,940 preparations and other products 1281 00:53:11,620 --> 00:53:07,430 classified as low-risk including by the 1282 00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:11,630 way 31 types of ear candles yay now this 1283 00:53:15,550 --> 00:53:13,250 review found over ninety percent of 1284 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:15,560 products breached the TGA guidelines and 1285 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:19,370 the review was done in 2009 2010 now the 1286 00:53:23,380 --> 00:53:21,650 one prior to that found that over 1287 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:23,390 seventy-five percent of products 1288 00:53:27,820 --> 00:53:25,970 breached TGA guidelines so in the last 1289 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:27,830 five years there has been consistently 1290 00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:30,170 high levels of non-compliance with the 1291 00:53:34,510 --> 00:53:32,510 rules of the TGA so let's look a little 1292 00:53:36,820 --> 00:53:34,520 bit closer at the products that recently 1293 00:53:40,060 --> 00:53:36,830 failed the review out of 31 that were 1294 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:40,070 randomly selected 22 were found to have 1295 00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:43,370 manufacturing and/or quality issues 20 1296 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:45,440 had labeling issues or breaches which 1297 00:53:50,170 --> 00:53:48,530 may mislead consumers and 14 did not 1298 00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:50,180 have adequate evidence to substantiate 1299 00:53:55,330 --> 00:53:53,330 claims made about the products so with 1300 00:53:58,450 --> 00:53:55,340 respect to consumer protection this is a 1301 00:54:00,220 --> 00:53:58,460 pretty bad result for the TGA so as a 1302 00:54:02,020 --> 00:54:00,230 result of these failures a significant 1303 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:02,030 number of products were removed from the 1304 00:54:06,070 --> 00:54:03,890 Australian Government's list of 1305 00:54:08,710 --> 00:54:06,080 therapeutic goods now it is worth noting 1306 00:54:11,350 --> 00:54:08,720 in this case however that nurofen is not 1307 00:54:13,300 --> 00:54:11,360 a listed drug it is a registered drug so 1308 00:54:14,740 --> 00:54:13,310 stricter rules apply when it comes to 1309 00:54:17,290 --> 00:54:14,750 the regulation of what's in it and 1310 00:54:19,510 --> 00:54:17,300 whether it works however advertising 1311 00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:19,520 laws for LN are drugs are essentially 1312 00:54:24,070 --> 00:54:22,130 the same basically you can't make claims 1313 00:54:26,740 --> 00:54:24,080 which you can't substantiate and if you 1314 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:26,750 do the TGA can order you to remove them 1315 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:29,330 now whether this be from a website which 1316 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:31,010 has happened several times now for 1317 00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:32,810 homeopathy plus or a television 1318 00:54:37,150 --> 00:54:34,910 commercial as is the case here with 1319 00:54:39,430 --> 00:54:37,160 nurofen now once a complaint about a 1320 00:54:41,230 --> 00:54:39,440 product is received and by the way the 1321 00:54:43,630 --> 00:54:41,240 TGA relies on consumers to make 1322 00:54:45,550 --> 00:54:43,640 complaints as they are not proactively 1323 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:45,560 seeking products which breach guidelines 1324 00:54:50,020 --> 00:54:48,290 and if the complaint is upheld the 1325 00:54:52,030 --> 00:54:50,030 company will be directed to remove the 1326 00:54:54,370 --> 00:54:52,040 offending material and or publish our 1327 00:54:55,610 --> 00:54:54,380 disclaimer but it's not used to regular 1328 00:54:57,770 --> 00:54:55,620 listeners of dr. rachel 1329 00:54:59,570 --> 00:54:57,780 ports that for some time now companies 1330 00:55:02,000 --> 00:54:59,580 have been ignoring these directives 1331 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:02,010 indeed approximately thirty percent of 1332 00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:04,650 companies do and they can because the 1333 00:55:10,970 --> 00:55:07,410 TGA has never in its history enforced 1334 00:55:13,340 --> 00:55:10,980 them ever here's what the audit had to 1335 00:55:15,380 --> 00:55:13,350 say about this due to the very low 1336 00:55:17,810 --> 00:55:15,390 financial penalty is currently available 1337 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:17,820 a maximum of sixty six hundred dollars 1338 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:20,010 for individuals and thirty-three 1339 00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:22,050 thousand for corporations for 1340 00:55:26,030 --> 00:55:23,970 advertising offenses in the act and 1341 00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:26,040 other investigative priorities for the 1342 00:55:32,060 --> 00:55:29,250 TGA it is not cost effective for the TGA 1343 00:55:34,190 --> 00:55:32,070 to initiate a formal investigation of an 1344 00:55:36,050 --> 00:55:34,200 advertising breach with a view to 1345 00:55:38,300 --> 00:55:36,060 preparing a brief for evidence for 1346 00:55:41,570 --> 00:55:38,310 consideration of prosecution by the 1347 00:55:43,610 --> 00:55:41,580 director of prosecution it has never 1348 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:43,620 been cost effective for the TGA to 1349 00:55:48,020 --> 00:55:45,930 initiate a formal investigation of an 1350 00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:48,030 advertising breach with a view to 1351 00:55:53,690 --> 00:55:51,570 preparing a brief of evidence so in 1352 00:55:55,970 --> 00:55:53,700 other words the cost of prosecuting a 1353 00:55:58,730 --> 00:55:55,980 company outweighs the fine so it's not 1354 00:56:00,200 --> 00:55:58,740 worth it and it's never been done this 1355 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:00,210 of course makes the TGA the 1356 00:56:04,190 --> 00:56:02,370 laughingstock of drug manufacturers if 1357 00:56:06,110 --> 00:56:04,200 you read between the lines of the neuro 1358 00:56:09,070 --> 00:56:06,120 friend press release you can see it loud 1359 00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:09,080 and clear let me remind you what it said 1360 00:56:13,730 --> 00:56:11,520 nurofen advises that consumers will 1361 00:56:15,830 --> 00:56:13,740 continue to see the familiar branding of 1362 00:56:18,830 --> 00:56:15,840 the nura fan target and messages of 1363 00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:18,840 nurofen working at the site of pain well 1364 00:56:22,460 --> 00:56:20,910 of course they will I mean thirty three 1365 00:56:24,890 --> 00:56:22,470 thousand dollars is a pittance for a 1366 00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:24,900 large pharma company anyway it's 1367 00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:26,250 laughable to think this would be a 1368 00:56:30,170 --> 00:56:28,050 deterrent to making some claims and 1369 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:30,180 might not be quite right but sound 1370 00:56:35,060 --> 00:56:32,970 pretty good in marketing terms to go 1371 00:56:37,490 --> 00:56:35,070 back to the tj's findings about reckitt 1372 00:56:40,820 --> 00:56:37,500 benckiser the complaint resolution panel 1373 00:56:42,410 --> 00:56:40,830 found that quote reasonable consumers 1374 00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:42,420 would conclude that the active 1375 00:56:45,770 --> 00:56:44,130 components of the product travelled 1376 00:56:48,380 --> 00:56:45,780 specifically to areas of the body 1377 00:56:50,180 --> 00:56:48,390 affected by pain in this instance the 1378 00:56:53,810 --> 00:56:50,190 part of the head affected by a headache 1379 00:56:56,030 --> 00:56:53,820 and I think this is a fair call but this 1380 00:56:59,120 --> 00:56:56,040 is not how painkillers work and to say 1381 00:57:00,890 --> 00:56:59,130 they are targeted is just a nonsense yet 1382 00:57:02,810 --> 00:57:00,900 this is not the first time nurofen has 1383 00:57:05,030 --> 00:57:02,820 been called out for shonky advertising 1384 00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:05,040 indeed last year they were honored with 1385 00:57:09,499 --> 00:57:07,770 a 2010 shonky award from choice magazine 1386 00:57:13,729 --> 00:57:09,509 for a very similar 1387 00:57:16,189 --> 00:57:13,739 a thing from the choice website nurofen 1388 00:57:19,009 --> 00:57:16,199 has a range of caplets for migraine back 1389 00:57:20,689 --> 00:57:19,019 tension headache and period pain yet a 1390 00:57:22,129 --> 00:57:20,699 closer look at the ingredients shows 1391 00:57:24,739 --> 00:57:22,139 they're identical from product to 1392 00:57:26,389 --> 00:57:24,749 product so does the back pain version 1393 00:57:28,099 --> 00:57:26,399 somehow magically go straight to your 1394 00:57:30,859 --> 00:57:28,109 back and only your back as soon as 1395 00:57:32,419 --> 00:57:30,869 you've swallowed it could you say choose 1396 00:57:34,699 --> 00:57:32,429 to treat only your back pain while 1397 00:57:39,049 --> 00:57:34,709 keeping your headache the answers are no 1398 00:57:41,479 --> 00:57:39,059 no and definitely no but sadly as long 1399 00:57:43,789 --> 00:57:41,489 as the TGA has no teeth to enforce dodgy 1400 00:57:44,779 --> 00:57:43,799 claims and advertising breaches I expect 1401 00:57:47,569 --> 00:57:44,789 we'll see this type of behavior 1402 00:57:51,769 --> 00:57:47,579 continued and even if they were to find 1403 00:57:53,569 --> 00:57:51,779 companies for breaches 33,000 or 6 600 1404 00:57:56,469 --> 00:57:53,579 bucks is a pittance to most drug 1405 00:57:58,969 --> 00:57:56,479 companies weather cam or science based 1406 00:58:00,589 --> 00:57:58,979 there seems little deterrent to stop 1407 00:58:03,649 --> 00:58:00,599 when there's money to be made and no 1408 00:58:05,269 --> 00:58:03,659 one's gonna stop you anyway in my 1409 00:58:07,459 --> 00:58:05,279 opinion this is about consumer 1410 00:58:08,989 --> 00:58:07,469 protection and if the TGA fails to do 1411 00:58:11,269 --> 00:58:08,999 that then I wonder what good they're 1412 00:58:13,339 --> 00:58:11,279 doing at all you can find the blog 1413 00:58:16,189 --> 00:58:13,349 related to this post on skeptics book 1414 00:58:18,559 --> 00:58:16,199 calm called the TGA gets flipped the 1415 00:58:20,749 --> 00:58:18,569 bird again and just a reminder that I 1416 00:58:23,599 --> 00:58:20,759 was a guest on science on top podcast 1417 00:58:27,259 --> 00:58:23,609 hosted by Lucas Randall last week we 1418 00:58:29,629 --> 00:58:27,269 talked about BMAA ALS MND and fruit bats 1419 00:58:31,339 --> 00:58:29,639 amongst other things check it out on 1420 00:58:33,709 --> 00:58:31,349 itunes if you'd like to hear it and 1421 00:58:36,690 --> 00:58:33,719 until next time this has been dr. eighty 1422 00:58:42,180 --> 00:58:39,420 dr. Rachel Dunlop is one of Australia's 1423 00:58:43,609 --> 00:58:42,190 foremost media commentators in matters 1424 00:58:46,140 --> 00:58:43,619 concerning so-called alternative 1425 00:58:49,950 --> 00:58:46,150 medicine she has appeared on national 1426 00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:49,960 radio and national television dr. H E is 1427 00:58:56,190 --> 00:58:52,240 available for interviews and you can 1428 00:59:10,319 --> 00:58:56,200 contact her at Rachel at skeptic zone 1429 00:59:12,780 --> 00:59:10,329 dot TV scopes monkey choir scopes monkey 1430 00:59:15,089 --> 00:59:12,790 choir wait are we acquire know when I 1431 00:59:20,010 --> 00:59:15,099 require but we are musicians when I 1432 00:59:22,950 --> 00:59:20,020 monkeys either we are primates so what 1433 00:59:25,230 --> 00:59:22,960 is scopes monkey choir its podcast oh 1434 00:59:27,839 --> 00:59:25,240 yeah it's podcast it's the podcast where 1435 00:59:29,819 --> 00:59:27,849 music and sound me to science and 1436 00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:29,829 skepticism we are two professional 1437 00:59:33,660 --> 00:59:31,930 musicians who decided turn are skeptical 1438 00:59:35,660 --> 00:59:33,670 eyes on our own profession we look at 1439 00:59:38,370 --> 00:59:35,670 the science of music we look at studies 1440 00:59:40,710 --> 00:59:38,380 recent studies about music and sound we 1441 00:59:45,420 --> 00:59:40,720 look skeptically at musical myths we 1442 00:59:47,819 --> 00:59:45,430 look at and we work out of our music 1443 00:59:50,069 --> 00:59:47,829 listen to us at Scopes Monkey choir calm 1444 00:59:52,260 --> 00:59:50,079 I'll find us on iTunes scopes monkey 1445 01:00:05,140 --> 00:59:52,270 choir the podcast for music and sound 1446 01:00:09,020 --> 01:00:07,340 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1447 01:00:10,490 --> 01:00:09,030 zone my goodness me I enjoyed that 1448 01:00:13,670 --> 01:00:10,500 little cup of ice cream with it 1449 01:00:15,500 --> 01:00:13,680 Hershey's chocolate I think I'd enjoy 1450 01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:15,510 any brand of chocolate to be honest with 1451 01:00:23,990 --> 01:00:21,210 you oh boy hmm yes now on next week's 1452 01:00:27,770 --> 01:00:24,000 show I hope we have another think tank 1453 01:00:30,380 --> 01:00:27,780 in fact dr. Richie and I may well travel 1454 01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:30,390 up from our part of Sydney to the part 1455 01:00:36,890 --> 01:00:33,210 of Sydney where Iran and Iran Segev and 1456 01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:36,900 Joe benim you live and visit a club near 1457 01:00:41,900 --> 01:00:39,690 their place why not sounds like an be a 1458 01:00:44,420 --> 01:00:41,910 fun trip so hopefully we'll get another 1459 01:00:47,150 --> 01:00:44,430 think tank happening more reports more 1460 01:00:49,700 --> 01:00:47,160 interviews update on this titanium iron 1461 01:00:52,220 --> 01:00:49,710 band NRG which we mentioned at the top 1462 01:00:54,110 --> 01:00:52,230 of the show in fact the Australian 1463 01:00:57,380 --> 01:00:54,120 skeptics are putting together an open 1464 01:00:59,990 --> 01:00:57,390 letter to rebel sports to say what do 1465 01:01:02,330 --> 01:01:00,000 you think you're playing at that's 1466 01:01:05,780 --> 01:01:02,340 something I'll have to look into this 1467 01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:05,790 week but until then this is Richard 1468 01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:07,890 Saunders signing off from Sydney 1469 01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:14,370 Australia you've been listening to the 1470 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:19,050 skeptic zone visit our website at www